Response to: "I have become an agnostic" thread

[TexasSky]

Travelsong,

I didn't ask if you believed mentally.

You obviously never surrendered your life to Christ. In the email we've exchanged you have stated over and over that you feel you don't need God to be good at whatever you have decided is good.

If you have not surrendered your life to Christ, humbly and wholly, you never were a Christian.

Faith in Christ is more than belief God exists.

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aaron:
And how else is one to feel when truly face to face with a righteous God?

We're to love ourselves, and each other, as God loves us. In fact, I felt worthless until I came to Christ.

If we're sending the message that we're supposed to feel worthless when we come to Christ, we're not sending the message of the NT. If we have done this with anyone, then we have failed on our mission. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm in agreement with John ( ), I felt totally worthless, a waste of air and space before I was saved. Any item is worth only what someoen is willing to pay for it, happens everwhere where anything is bought and sold. I am valuable, Christ paid the ultimate price for me. He gave His life for me. Thats makes me worth a whole lot.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
You obviously never surrendered your life to Christ.

&lt;snip&gt;

If you have not surrendered your life to Christ, humbly and wholly, you never were a Christian.

I find statements like this to be totally inappropriate, presumptuous, and demeaning. No one but Travelsong knows the depth of his commitment to Christ. If it were all crystal clear, everyone would be a Christian. Christianity is NOT a roach motel...you can check in, but you can't check out. People can believe something with all their being, and yet be convinced of the fallacy of such an argument at a later date. IMO, it is cult-like behavior to say someone was not a believer if they find compelling evidence (at least to them) contrary to said belief.

Travelsong should not be the object of pity, but of continued love.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Alcott:
Travelsong, I don't if it is advisable or not for me to respond on this thread, but my answer will be quite different from the others I read.

For several years I have thought myself to be near the line of becoming an agnostic. I don't really know your situation, of course, but I do know mine. I regard myself as a logical thinking person, with a degree in mathematics and some very strange approaches to activities and problems, at least in the minds of some people. I am a lonely person, never-married, middle-aged, and often sad that friend and family members are gone, and I go through long nights and uneventful holidays, and just that what made up some elements of 'happiness' are long gone and have not been replaced. I have long ceased to listen to what many Christians want to tell me, that God "has someone special for you," or has a "plan" about career, et al, while I work at a job with low pay and nothing at all to do with my degree or my interests. So it's easy to become skeptical and think people who are happy in their jobs or their families were nothing but fortunate. Burnout is about the closest thing to describe my approach many aspects of life. This has made it easy for me point out some errors in reasoning I see among so many fellow Christians, and to understand they believe in their Bible like others believe in fortune-telling; they perceive God to be "working" in their lives because they choose to see it, while I don't see it in my life because I choose to look at things from logical angles. One example is the story I have told more than once here about my 'tithing' test, in response to these "testimonies" that "giving God his tithe" keeps their own financcial situations profitable and in order; my statistical test showed tithing has nothing to do with finances other there is less money than if I don't do it.

But your resignation seems to be based more on the fairness issue of all people being sinners, yet some are saved from eternal perdition, while most, in spite of upbringing or essentially trying to do what they thing is right, will suffer infinite punishment for very finite 'crimes.' I know there is nothing that can be said to make you change the view that this is monstrous. But I think any Christian really thinks this. From the only perspectives we have, a Being which would do this is extremely, infinitely unjust. So to continue to believe in the God of the Bible is to continue to believe in this 'injustice.' So then you think that to participate in the gospel-- even if only by continuing to believe it-- is participation in this injustice. I have no answer for this, but I know you don't need cliches, such as you should focus on how loving and gracious he is to offer the means of escape, when it was his mode of creation that created what it is that he offers an an escape from.

There is no simple reply to the question implicit in your posting this info, "I am no longer certain of the existence of a god; is there any reason I have not thought of to believe again?" I'm sure you expected some of the responses you have gotten; esecially like you must have never believed, or what can be read between the lines that you cannot now be an unbeliever, even if you want to. All I can say is that I have pushed my own tendency to no longer believe to the limits a few times; and sometimes quickly, sometimes not so, I find I can't cross that line. Some person or some event finally gives me a fresh angle. And I know this fresh angle is 'there' because I wish and perceive it to be there, but why can God not appeal to one's logical thinking if that is how one chooses to seek such a new perspective? As to the injustice issue, I choose to leave it for others to argue about; my own approval or abhorance will not change anything about it. But it seems ironic that the more one disbelieves in it, the more one abhors it, so you think about how awful something is that doesn't exist. This rather compares to those posts condemning many aspects of Halloween. One may leave alone what one chooses to abhor; if it's not there, or we have misperceived it, it can't hurt you-- or anyone else.

Yes.

I am a black or white person yet I've always lived in the grey. Until recently I've always believed in God, and most of my life I've affirmed Jesus as saviour.

You've effectively described my dilemma with God.

If he's infinite in knowledge, he's either very mean, or finite in power. If he's infinitely benevolent then he must by definition be finite in power.

I don't mean this as offense, but for me the God of the Bible has become a lunatic screaming to be worshipped. I don't know how to change my perception of this. It's not even as though I'm filled with bitterness about it, so it's hard for me to imagine myself as rebellious. I'm still just a guy pursuing the same ideals as before without a belief that I live in some default, damnable condition.

 

[Jim1999]

You are quite right. One must have a correct perception of God to even begin to understand the mind of God. First off, He is God and the Creator of all. He has an inalienable right to what He does all the time.

The Bible is giving us just a glimpse of His nature and His reasons. The Bible is the bloodline of redemption; a reclaiming of a people back to Himself, namely, the people of Israel, His chosen people. Along the way things happen. Some not so pretty, but they do fit into the nature of God, when one rightly understands His attributes, as pictured in the whole of scripture. He cannot circumvent his attributes, else He would not be God. We are creatures of time, space and limitations, which includes our knowledge of events and of God Himself. The Israelites were learning as are we. They made mistakes, as do we.

Just take one step at a time. Don't worry about what others may think, but "to thine own self be true."

Cheers, and God bless,

Jim

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Magnetic Poles:
No one but Travelsong knows the depth of his commitment to Christ. If it were all crystal clear, everyone would be a Christian. Christianity is NOT a roach motel...you can check in, but you can't check out. People can believe something with all their being, and yet be convinced of the fallacy of such an argument at a later date. IMO, it is cult-like behavior to say someone was not a believer if they find compelling evidence (at least to them) contrary to said belief.

Travelsong should not be the object of pity, but of continued love.

That's very kind of you. I've only ever wanted to know the truth. I used to express it whole heartedly within the framework of Christian thought, but now I simply am not convinced of it any more.

I want as badly as anyone for there to be absolute standards of right and wrong by which all men are governed. In the context of the world as we most commonly understand it, reward and punishment in the hereafter make logical sense.

I'm okay with the idea of a god, and to some extent the idea of redemption. I just don't think I can ever bring myself to accept the god of the Bible again.

 

[Matt Black]

Why must there be absolute standards of right and wrong? Sounds like legalism to me...

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Why must there be absolute standards of right and wrong? Sounds like legalism to me...

Because the God of the Bible demands it. He is the ultimate standard by which everything is weighed, compared and judged.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
Travelsong--stop thinking about yourself!

My considerations always have and always will put my family as a top priority.

Yes, I happen to have lost my faith. That does not mean I've shredded and tossed right and wrong out the window.

 

[Humblesmith]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
You've effectively described my dilemma with God.

If he's infinite in knowledge, he's either very mean, or finite in power. If he's infinitely benevolent then he must by definition be finite in power.

I don't mean this as offense, but for me the God of the Bible has become a lunatic screaming to be worshipped.

If you want to hear an interesting discussion on this very topic, go to www.johnakerbergshow.com and get a video of a discussion between Rabbi Harold Kushner and Norman Geisler. Kushner's daughter died of a slow, agonizing disease, and he came to the same conclusion you did. He expressed his view very eloquently. Geisler explores all aspects of it in a very open, friendly manner. It's a very interesting discussion. I think it's titled "Why do bad things happen to good people?" after the title of Kushner's book.

Geisler has written on this topic, and holds that this is a false dilemma.

 

[Humblesmith]

that is supposed to be
www.johnankerbergshow.com

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Sorry I just picked up that this thread was here and written by Travelsong . . .

Travelsong, I'm not in the slightest bit worried about your spiritual state. I think you are actually learning more about what God is really like instead of what you had been led to believe, that's all. I'll pray for you that God will reconfirm to you His reality and His love for us all in His way in His timing.

(Sometimes I REALLY REALLY want to talk to Him about His ideas of proper timing . . . )

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Aaron:
It's bad enough that Johnv can participate.

What's with the rude comment?

Originally posted by Travelsong:
Accountability is irrelevant. I didn't do anything. I just am. Now what do I do?

No need to overanalyze. I see it this way:

1 - The bible says that the penalty for sin is spiritual death.
2 - I sin.
3 - Because of 1 and 2, I am unable to pay the price that my own sin costs.
4 - Jesus has offerred to pay that price for me.
5 - I will let him.

Let all others spend the rest of their days analyzing, interpreting, and debating. I'm satisfied with the above, and that's why I have decided to be a follower of Christ. I admit I don't always know what that means, and freely admit that I often fail in my attempt to follow him.

I invite you to do the same. Maybe you won't today, maybe you won't tomorrow, but whenever you're ready, you're welcome to join me.

 

[Bro. James]

"I happened to have lost my faith..."

Thank the Lord. "Your faith" was counterfeit. Real faith does not come from depraved man--contrary to popular opinion,depraved man has not one iota of faith in his being. "My faith" is a misnomer. If we have any real faith, God gave it to us--we cannot throw it away, give it away--it belongs to God--just like all the redeemed are bought with a price. See Eph. 2:8-10. If we have any faith of ourselves to exercise, then we can boast: "God I did my part, now you do yours". Salvation becomes a coop between God and Man. That is a teaching from the pit.

God gave me the faith to believe that Jesus redeemed this filthy sinner by shedding His innocent blood--that is the grace of God. He could have destroyed everything He created and still be perfectly justified. He is infinitely holy. We are infinitely depraved.

God also keeps me by His grace.

Bottom line: if "your faith" is not enduring to the end, better check out where you got it.

The faith that God gives endures through eternity.

Back to the closet--with the light on and a Bible, read Romans chapters 1-5 very slowly.
Now, turn out the light. Let the Holy Spirit
bear witness to The Word.

If you have not already done so,throw away "your faith" and receive the faith that only God can give.

Selah,

Bro. James

[ October 26, 2005, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]

 

[Gwen]

Travelsong,

I don't know you, or your history, but I sense a great deal of anguish in your recent posts. Whatever has happened to bring you to this decision must have been incredibly painful. But remember: God has not abandoned you just because of your abandonment of your faith. He still loves you and will never stop pursuing you. He is the perfect parent, and his wrath is perfectly balanced with love. Things may seem out of control, but He is still God. Just because we do not always understand His ways does not lessen His deity.

Please be sure that many of us here at BB are praying for you. You are not abandoned or alone. Deut. 4:29-31 says "the Lord your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon you."

Gwen

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
I've learned from experience that this thinking is psychologically damaging.

The more you focus on your inadequacies, imperfections, shortcomings, self destructive desires, the more they become problems for you.

I am a guy doing the best I can. I am not perfect, but I am not evil. I will be the best father, husband, son, brother and citizen I can be without living in fear of some angry tyrant who will torture me for all eternity just to demonstrate his infinite benevolence.

I'm the same guy, subtract the endless self chastisement.

WHy are you thinking on all the short commings? I looked at your profile and seen that you say your a Baptist.... well then.. surly you heard the Good News that you are more than a conquer? Rom. 8:37-39

Jesus took it all when he died on the cross. Yes I messed up (we all mess up) in my life I'm not perfect yet or I'd be walking on water. (Now I'm just a wet water walker..but its better than a dry boat sitter)

But when I do mess up and sometimes I have them days where I don't do nothing right... I repent and Jesus is always there. I think its the devil that is making you kick yourself in areas that you haven't overcame in and if I was you I'd tell old "Lucy" that Jesus paid it all and remind him who you are in Christ. Don't think on the negitive, trust God and look at all the promises He has given you.

Rom.15:13

Don't give up!

 

[Benjamin]

I don't know why I feel compelled to announce this except for those who feel they are headed toward a similar experience and don't know what to do.

Travelsong,

Let me make an observation here; I’m with Paul of Eugene on this and will add I don’t hear the words of an Agnostic here at all. Why do you think you’re compelled to announce this? I’m hearing great conviction which I would say only comes from faith, not only that but I think the HS is talking to you and about to drop you to your knees and you have your legs locked because of a LIAR. It sounds to me you are having trouble letting go of self, getting caught up in Philosophy maybe? That’s a good way to get spoiled in your faith, Colossians 2:8 my friend, don’t just read it, memorize it! Stay in His word for the truth. Are you asking men to show you the truth?

Need more faith to bend those knees? Ask God, go into His word and see what He says to you. You are certainly not the first to struggle against sin and try understanding God’s love. Nothing new under the sun, think about what Paul went through. (Romans 7:18-25) God will show you the faith you need if you ask Him. (Matthew 7:7) Do you know the difference between tears of frustration and tears of joy? It’s not that far apart. Read Ecclesiastes and Palms. Do you go to church, pray, and read your Bible to know God or just read this board? How often do you crack the Bible open and pray behind a closed door? Meditate on this:


(Psa 143:1) A Psalm of David. Hear my prayer, O LORD, give ear to my supplications: in thy faithfulness answer me, and in thy righteousness.

(Psa 143:2) And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

(Psa 143:3) For the enemy hath persecuted my soul; he hath smitten my life down to the ground; he hath made me to dwell in darkness, as those that have been long dead.

(Psa 143:4) Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me ; my heart within me is desolate.

(Psa 143:5) I remember the days of old; I meditate on all thy works; I muse on the work of thy hands.

(Psa 143:6) I stretch forth my hands unto thee: my soul thirsteth after thee, as a thirsty land. Selah.

(Psa 143:7) Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit.

(Psa 143:8) Cause me to hear thy lovingkindness in the morning; for in thee do I trust: cause me to know the way wherein I should walk; for I lift up my soul unto thee.

(Psa 143:9) Deliver me, O LORD, from mine enemies: I flee unto thee to hide me.

(Psa 143:10) Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

(Psa 143:11) Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake: for thy righteousness' sake bring my soul out of trouble.

(Psa 143:12) And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant.

Read what God’s letter has to say to you and you won’t be afraid to bend those knees, you will do it out of love and faith, the tears will turn to joy. Just ask Him and see for yourself.

My prayers are with you.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
I am a guy doing the best I can. I am not perfect, but I am not evil.

If you're not perfect, how can you be anything but evil? Instead of thinking of evil as something in and of itself, you should think of it as the lack of something. The whole meaning of the word "sin" is "to fall short."

I will be the best father, husband, son, brother and citizen I can be...

By whose standard? Unfortunately, you will be a miserable husband, father, etc. because there is one thing that your family needs that you cannot give them--life, and now you're telling them you don't know where to find it. Your alleged agnosticism may be soothing your conscience for now, but in the long run will only leave you empty and bitter.

... without living in fear of some angry tyrant who will torture me for all eternity just to demonstrate his infinite benevolence.

The pains of death are in no place I've read classified as benevolent. They are just, though. God's benevolence is in the Remedy He provided for sin. His justice is demonstrated in the penalty.

What BTK had broken into your house, bound, tortured and killed your family, and some "benevolent" judge did not impose a penalty, but let him go free? Would you consider him benevolent? Just? Would you consider him good in any way?

But now that you've denied all knowledge, which is what the word agnostic means, no knowledge, upon what basis do you presume judge the God of the Bible?

I'm the same guy, subtract the endless self chastisement.

That's your problem, you've been trying to atone for your own sins. God has already chastised His Son for sin. It only remains for you take hold of that remedy by faith.

Arise, my soul, arise; shake off thy guilty fears;
The bleeding sacrifice in my behalf appears:
Before the throne my surety stands,
Before the throne my surety stands,
My name is written on His hands.

He ever lives above, for me to intercede;
His all redeeming love, His precious blood, to plead:
His blood atoned for all our race,
His blood atoned for all our race,
And sprinkles now the throne of grace.

Five bleeding wounds He bears; received on Calvary;
They pour effectual prayers; they strongly plead for me:
“Forgive him, O forgive,” they cry,
“Forgive him, O forgive,” they cry,
“Nor let that ransomed sinner die!”

The Father hears Him pray, His dear anointed One;
He cannot turn away, the presence of His Son;
His Spirit answers to the blood,
His Spirit answers to the blood,
And tells me I am born of God.

My God is reconciled; His pardoning voice I hear;
He owns me for His child; I can no longer fear:
With confidence I now draw nigh,
With confidence I now draw nigh,
And “Father, Abba, Father,” cry.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
Sorry I just picked up that this thread was here and written by Travelsong . . .

Travelsong, I'm not in the slightest bit worried about your spiritual state. I think you are actually learning more about what God is really like instead of what you had been led to believe, that's all. I'll pray for you that God will reconfirm to you His reality and His love for us all in His way in His timing.

(Sometimes I REALLY REALLY want to talk to Him about His ideas of proper timing . . . )

Ditto

 

[Ed Edwards]

Travelsong: //but for me the God of the Bible
has become a lunatic screaming to be worshipped. I don't know
how to change my perception of this.//

I don't know how to change your perception either.
I'll just share my perception.

God is self-existant and self-sufficient, that is He needs no human being
to create HIm nor complete His Self. Nevertheless, He would have us worship Him.
Then the worship of Him must be for our good not His good.

BTW, I'm searching my Scriptures diligently trying to find the
verses that must say something like:

O.T. Thou shalt Judge the Salvation of Others.

N.T. Hasten, hasten to Judge the Salvation of another.
N.T. Be instant to Judge the Salvation of another; be instant
in season, be instant out of season.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but this very month i've been
called a "self-righteous /expletive deleted/" which was, when the
fellow saw a woman, changed to "self-righteous hypocrite".
My crime? I had (I took it off lest I offend another) a bumper sticker
that read:

I believe the Big Bang Theory:
God Said It - and Bang! It Happened!