Speaking in Tongues Volume 3...

I experienced the interpretation of tongues once in a fellowship years ago where I was to speak. A visiting missionary from Portugal was also at that fellowship that morning and was asked to speak prior to me.

As he spoke in his native tongue (Portugese), before the interpreter could speak into the microphone what the man was saying, I was speaking the same words in English! The interpreter looked toward me but began interpreting. The very same words I was uttering were the interpretation! Yet, I know not a word of the Portugal tongue. I was actually hearing the words in English and audibly speaking them. People in the congregation did not hear me, but the interpreter did and the pastor of that congregation did.

They asked me when I learned Portugese later. I affirmed that I never studied it, nor had heard it before in my life.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

As to your theory on foreign languages you might get a novice in the Word to think you were possibly right. Were the preaching Elders at all the churches in Asia Minor masters of all the languages of the then known world? Rather doubtful . . .

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Where does it say anything in those chapters about preaching elders speaking in tongues? Can you demonstrate such through Scripture? I never said suggested any such thing, so I don't know what you are talking about.

As far as an individual having the gift of languages we see that the Apostle Paul, who said "I speak in 'languages' more than you all, visited many foreign nations, and thus had the need of speaking in foreign languages. Thus the Lord would have given him the gift of tongues for that purpose. But remember also, that even as he traveled the known world at that time, so were the Jews scattered over the world at that time. So, yes the Lord gave Paul the miraculous gift of speaking many languages that he did not have to learn It was a gift--given of God--a gift of the Holy Spirit. It was miraculous--to be used when needed--not selfishly as in a private prayer language.

Oh, and I love the idea about the traveling Jew.

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You ought to. You will find an account in Acts chapter two where thousands upon thousands of traveling Jews gathered at the Temple on the Day of Pentecost to worship. Many of them got saved that day. Many of them heard 120 disciples of Christ speak in other languages. In fact they heard them speak in their own native language, the wonderful works of God. Let me assure you it wasn't modern day gibberish.
DHK

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:

These are truths drawn from the Old Testament, the gospel accounts, and the Book of Acts. From a Biblical standpoint, they cannot be denied.

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I don't consider what happened n Acts to be the same as the subject matter in 1 Cor. 14.

DHK,

"What sign would continue for 21 centuries. How ludicrous to even think that that would happen."

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Here is a gifts of the Spirit list...

"12:4
There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

12:5
There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

12:6
And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

12:7
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

12:8
for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,

12:9
to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

12:10
to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

12:11
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills."

So its ludicrous to think that the gift of tongues will last 21 centuries? (and I assume you would also say healings, miracles, discerning and discerning of spirits as well)

So...in order to be consistant you would then have to also argue that its ludicrous for these gifts of the Spirit...

Wisdom

Knowledge

Faith

...to continue for 21 centuries as well.

"Tongues were for a sign to the Jews. The sign has been removed because its usefulness has been completed."

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You believe that all the Jews have embraced Christ and are now born again Messianic Jews?

Grace and peace,

Mike

querty,

You posted to DHK...

"1CO 14:39 Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way."

If after all your teaching, you come to the same conclusion, then we would be in agreement.

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The word of God is so clear on this subject.

"do not forbid speaking in tongues"

"I have actually seen someone write that when Paul wrote "do not forbid speaking in tongues", he acutally meant that he wanted them to stop speaking in tongues, by saying "do not forbid speaking in tongues".

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"It must have taken some imagination to do that,..."

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You would think so, but it was probably something else.

"...or some kind of agenda."

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DING DING DING DING!!!

We have a winner!

"As far as I know, when Paul said "do not forbid speaking in tongues", there is no revelation after this to change this statement."

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Of course there isnt.

"If you have a source of revelation that negates the statement "do not forbid speaking in tongues", I would like to see it. Many would like to see it. The written Scriptures have nothing in them that negates the statement "do not forbid speaking in tongues"."

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They certainly dont.

God bless,

Mike

DHK,

"Wherefore languages were a sign...to them that believe not. Who? The Jews? Which Jews? The unbelieving Jews."

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Are there still unbelieving Jews?

Mike

DHK,

"The gift of languages was never in Greek. It was always in a foreign language."

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Would you not consider a language not spoken on earth, but rather in heaven, to be a foreign language???

And that it would only be by the gifting of the Holy Spirit that someone could miraculously speak it?

Mike

interesting. the tongues are still in effect today, yes. But, they are not the babbling and gibberish that is spoken in many pentecostal and charismatic churches today. I firmly believe that.

standingfirminChrist,

"As he spoke in his native tongue (Portugese), before the interpreter could speak into the microphone what the man was saying, I was speaking the same words in English! The interpreter looked toward me but began interpreting. The very same words I was uttering were the interpretation! Yet, I know not a word of the Portugal tongue. I was actually hearing the words in English and audibly speaking them. People in the congregation did not hear me, but the interpreter did and the pastor of that congregation did.

They asked me when I learned Portugese later. I affirmed that I never studied it, nor had heard it before in my life."

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There are some on these very threads who say that what happened to you never happens anymore.

I'm not kidding.

God bless,

Mike

Mike,

People may scoff, but it actually did happen. I have two wittnesses.

standingfirminChrist,

Oh, I believe you!

I've posted many times on these threads that it still happens just that way sometimes. I've never personally been in a service where it happened, but I have heard the testimonies. They were just like yours.

I've actually heard testimonies of people who heard the message from the evangelist in their own language, yet the speaker had no idea what was going on and was shocked, but blessedly so, when he heard about it.

Mike

DHK,

You said, '. . . miraculous gift of speaking many languages that he did not have to learn . . .'

Once you start with a theory like yours it always remains only error and theory.

I just located in my library a volume called: "A Theology of the Holy Spirit" written by Fredrick Dale Bruner, Wm B. Eerdmans Publisher, that deals wisely with the matter of 'tongues' and the 'interpretation of tongues.' plus the other 'gifts of the Holy Spirit (charismata) and Glossolalia. I cannot guarantee everything he says because I only read two pages out of his text. It was very Biblical.

Also, Abraham Kuyper seems to understand 'tongues' aright his volume "The Work of the Holy Spirit, Eerdmans Publishing, p. 133.

Dr. Kuyper's statement: 'The third sign following the outpouring of the Holy Spirit consisted in extraordinary sounds that proceeded from the lips of the apostles--sounds foreign to the Aramaic tongue, never before heard from their lips.

These sounds affected the multitude in different ways: some called them babblings of inebriate men; others hear in them th great works of God proclaimed. To the latter, it seemed as though they heard them speaking in their own tongues.'

Those in the Upper Room went into the streets speaking in 'tongues' unknown to anyone as is, but God allowed each person coming from various nations to understand the message of the Gospel.

Count up the word, 'tongues' in Acts, I Cor. 12 & 14 and you will see the word, 'glossa' 18 times indicating unintelligable speech.

Dr. James Strong says, 'a language of one which is naturally---unacquired.' This is what theologians call the "Theology of Glossolalia.'

God does not count denials as theological exegesis.

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First let me correct a statement I made earlier about Ray's post. I had him mixed up with Bob Ryan. I knew something was wrong when I said Ray's post showed me a well studied person in the Bible and then looked at the nonsense he is thowing out here. Wanted to clear that up.
I have heard the story of persons actually haveing the biblical tongues. But I will challenge anyone to go with me to any ...ANY charasmatic church in the Detroit area and find one where they practice biblecal toungues. Yes God still does miraculus things. He is still working.
YOur post above RAy is nothing but nonesense. You say glossia means a heaven language yet if you look through the bible what modifies it says you are dead wrong. It will not work in the context.
Where are the other signs from Acts, the wind and tongues of fire? Shoot you can't even take the simple context of acts 2 and accept that they heard in THEIR OWN LANGAUGE! THEIR OWN LANGAUGE...not a heavenly langauge or some hebbie jibbie nonsense IN THIER OWN LANGAUGE. Now you poor attempt at twisting is not even cloce it is an insult to anyone's intelligence. Unless you are willing to the bible and context then youj will continue to sound like person with, to say the least, poor comprehension skills.
Again, there is nothing in speaking in tongues denied me because I don't. I have all available to me that God has to offer. I do not need to waste people's time or act like a mad man to be filled by the HS.
And lastly d28 and the rest of you sign followers need to come up with proof that it was a heavenly language. I do know that Paul addresses the issue of worshipping idols. Check how they did in the OT. Now that reminds me of the charasmatic churches!

Originally posted by D28guy:
DHK,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Wherefore languages were a sign...to them that believe not. Who? The Jews? Which Jews? The unbelieving Jews."

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Are there still unbelieving Jews?

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Again context is everything. It was a fulfillment of prophecy speaking of that generation of Jews specifically. Peter addressed the very ones that had crucified our Lord. It was that generation of unbelieving Jews (the first generation) that this was a sign to.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

We don't have first generation unbelieving Jews today. The sign has been removed. The kingdom was offered to them, and they rejected it. They further rejected the message of the gospel through the apostles. It was then that God rejected or set aside for a period of time the nation of Israel.
DHK

Originally posted by D28guy:
DHK,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"The gift of languages was never in Greek. It was always in a foreign language."

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Would you not consider a language not spoken on earth, but rather in heaven, to be a foreign language???

And that it would only be by the gifting of the Holy Spirit that someone could miraculously speak it?

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]This is nothing but paganism, mysticism and gnosticism mixed.
1. You don't know what the language of heaven is, so you are claiming to be a gnostic having secret knowledge that no one else knows.
2. It is mysticism, something that the pagans practice when the speek in their ecstatic utterances, going into trances and trying to commune with their gods. It is also common with the occult.
3. As above, it is a pagan practice that Paul warned the Corinthians about in 1Cor.12:1-3.
4. Language means human language. Don't presume that you know things that are not. God is omniscient; you are not. To presume that you know the language of heaven is arrogant. Furthermore, when John was taken to heaven, the only language recorded in the Book of Revelation are human languages. Those were the languages that he heard--ones which he was able to understand. We have no reason to believe anything differently.
DHK

Originally posted by DHK:
3. As above, it is a pagan practice that Paul warned the Corinthians about in 1Cor.12:1-3.

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But the spiritual gifts in 1Cor 12 are real.

1 Cor 12
1 Corinthians 12
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, ""Jesus is accursed''; and no one can say, ""Jesus is Lord,'' except by the Holy Spirit.


27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.


1 Corinthians 14
1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

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On this subject I am somewhere between DHK and DB28Guy.

I agree that the jibberish seen today is a counterfeit of the actual gift mentioned in the NT.

But I also agree that the Gifts given to the Church in 1Cor 12 and in Eph 4 apply "until we all reach to the maturity and unity that is Christs... the full measure of the stature" of Christ. (That is to say - at the resurrecion and rapture of the church at "His coming again")

In Christ,

Bob

Anyone who is wanting to argue the 'tongues of angels' as being the heavenly language, did you ever stop to think that whenever angels appeared and spoke to people on earth, they spoke in that person's native tongue? Not gibberish?

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Seems to me angels can be anywhere in the world according to the above scripture, and I am sure they speak a known tongue or language.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:


Also, Abraham Kuyper seems to understand 'tongues' aright his volume "The Work of the Holy Spirit, Eerdmans Publishing, p. 133.

Dr. Kuyper's statement: 'The third sign following the outpouring of the Holy Spirit consisted in extraordinary sounds that proceeded from the lips of the apostles--sounds foreign to the Aramaic tongue, never before heard from their lips.

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it seemed as though they heard them speaking in their own tongues.'
Count up the word, 'tongues' in Acts, I Cor. 12 & 14 and you will see the word, 'glossa' 18 times indicating unintelligable speech.

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You don't even listen to your own commentary, who agrees that tongues are other languages--languages other than Aramaic. He admits it. That is what he is saying Ray. Believe him. It didn't change between Pentecost and the time of the writing of the epistle to Corinth.
A language is a language. Why not try speaking gibberish to your neighbors Ray? See how far you get in communication. Ask one neighbor to translate your gibberish for you? Ought to be fun, eh? Gibberish is untranslatable. Not even God knows what it is. It is untranslatable because it is all nonsense. A string of syllables put together and repeated over and over again is nonsense to both God and man. It has no meaning whatsoever. It is uncommunicable.

Every time glossa is used it is used in relation to an actual foreign language in the Bible, except in places like James 3 where it occasionally refers to the organ of the tongue. It does not refer to ecstatic speech. Pagans speech in ecstatic speech.

Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
That today's speaking in tongues is a sign from heaven, is the way of the heathen.
DHK

Gibberish is untranslatable. Not even God knows what it is.

Sorry, DHK, I have to disagree with ya there. Since God is all knowing, He would have to know what gibberish is. But I believe He thinks it is foolishness, as we do as well. :smiles:

You did bring up a good point in saying Ray should try speaking this gibberish to neighbors. I would even go as far as saying to an unbelieving neighbor. For tongues were given for a sign, not to the believing, but to the unbelieving.

1 Corinthians was written before 59 AD. It was written in 57 AD. This was before the offer of the Kingdom was withdrawn from Israel as a nation.

BTW, standing, I don't think that what you experienced would be classified as "tongues", as the guy was speaking in his native tongue, and you were hearing in yours. That would, in my opinion, classify as a miracle from God and not as a sign-gift. The Bible doesn't say that miracles will cease, just the sign-gifts performed through men.