Speaking in Tongues Volume 3...

qwerty,

 

DHK,

You said, 'Tongues were for a sign to the Jews.'

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DHK,

You said, 'Do you keep the Passover, as commanded?'

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DHK,
You can use few words, or many, but your conclusions differ from those of the APOSTLE Paul.

After all that Paul taught, he concluded:

1CO 14:39 Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

If after all your teaching, you come to the same conclusion, then we would be in agreement.

I have actually seen someone write that when Paul wrote "do not forbid speaking in tongues", he acutally meant that he wanted them to stop speaking in tongues, by saying "do not forbid speaking in tongues". It must have taken some imagination to do that, or some kind of agenda.

As far as I know, when Paul said "do not forbid speaking in tongues", there is no revelation after this to change this statement.

If you have a source of revelation that negates the statement "do not forbid speaking in tongues", I would like to see it. Many would like to see it. The written Scriptures have nothing in them that negates the statement "do not forbid speaking in tongues".

 

Having belonged to both pentecostal churches and non-pentecostal churches for many years, I think sometimes both to have an attitude problem with the other.
Some pentecostal people think they are more spiritual than other christians who do not have the pentecostal experience. Sounds like too much pride to me.
Some non-pentecostal people think that if God doesn't deal with us that way in their church, then God doesn't give the pentecostal experience to anyone. Sounds like arrogance to me.
We are all different, so let's not try to limit God on how he chooses to deal with us. My experience has been that both pentecostals and non-pentecostals have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and have about the same dedecation to serving Him.

 

I speak in "tongues" in my church when I preach and teach: Greek. Then, I interpret. Hmmm...

 

I owuld go further than you. What you are talking about in 1 Cor 14:39 is a prohibitive imperative. In the majority of cases it means to stop doing what you are doing and do not do it any more.

In this case it means stop hindering the speaking in tongues and do not do hinder or forbid it any more. In most cases a prohibitive imperative is a reprimand.

Some grammarians who are cessationists will also state that they cannot prove cessation by grammer and the text alone. Dan Wallace, a professor at DTS states that in his grammar.

Dan Wallace writes on page 725 of his grammar, " Do not forbid the speaking in tongues."

 

I agree. Ever notice what happens when they leave the church building and mix with friends who may not be pentecostal. It happens both ways too.

 

I've never tried to prove it through grammar. Some things can be proved through grammar, such as salvational security, other things can be proven contextually.

The miraculous speaking of foreign languages is the latter. This sign-gift was given for a particular reason, and that reason went away some time between 59 AD and 64 AD.

 

1. My position as a moderator has nothing to do with my theology.
2. I compare Scripture with Scripture, and don't take it out of context as you have done below.
3. I ocme to conclusions by my own study, not by others as you infer.
4. You would be wise to keep your personal attack to yourself when you feel the need to post them. Read your post over first before you post it.

As I mentioned above, the verse is taken out of context. Why did you fail to quote verse 21. Do you see the connecting word "wherefore"? It connects the thought of verse 22 to verse 21. Remember that there was no punctuation in the originals. The two verses used to be one. What does verse 21 say:

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

So you don't get confused I will quote it again in another translation to make sure that you know that "tongues" means "languages."

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, "By men of strange languages and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people. Not even thus will they hear me, says the Lord." (WEB)

This fulfillment of prophecy was originally given in Isaiah 28:11,12 which Paul is quoting from. The phrase "this people" refers only to the nation of Israel, as it does in Isaiah. God is speaking to the nation of Israel. He says that he will speak to them in strange languages, that is languages that they are not used to hearing the Word of God spoken in, languages other than their sacred language of Hebrew. Gentile langauges were an abomination to the Hebrews. They could understand them, but they were strange in the sense that their holy Word was never heard in a strange or foreign language. This was a sign to the Jews that they had not listened to the prophets of Isaiah's time, and if they would not listen to the message of the time of this sign (the speaking in strange languages) judgment was certain to come (as it did). It was a sign to the Jews.

Wherefore languages were a sign...to them that believe not. Who? The Jews? Which Jews? The unbelieving Jews. The verse has nothing to do with the Gentiles. Take it in its context. The context is in verse 21 connected with a connective "wherefore." It is speaking of the unbelieving Jew.

This has been pointed out to you before, and yet you fail to believe. But don't worry it is a common mistake. Compare Scripture with Scripture. Did it really have a preponderance of Gentiles. Look and see:

Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth.
Acts 18:4 He reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded Jews and Greeks.
--The Scripture does not say it was a Gentile church. It was started in the synagogue. And many Jews were saved. Don't read into the Scripture that which is not there. Don't assume facts not in evidence.

It was a sign to the unbelieving Jew. What happened when the unbelieving Gentile heard this "sign?"

1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
--It had the opposite effect. Unsaved gentiles thought that they were crazy, mad.

The gift of languages was never in Greek. It was always in a foreign language. That is why it was a gift. Your theology is wrong. It was a gift to the church. It was a gift in order that any unbelieving Jew might be saved. Remember that all Jews were well acquainted with the Scriptures (Old Testament), whereas the Gentiles were not. They would have recognized the message being said in another language had they understood the language being spoken, which was the purpose of it being spoken. "How hear we every man in our own language?" It was not some sort of gibberish. It was not an ecstatic speech; a pagan mystery language. You can keep your paganism to yourself. The gift of tongues was the gift of speaking in foreign languages. Study the Bible for yourself.
DHK

 

What is your reason? I see no evidence that it has ceased because people are still speaking ecstatic utterances. A friend of mine who grew up in a fundamental Baptist Church had a speaking in tongues experience and surprised himself and his wife. I have heard of other strange experiences from others who have heard speaking in tongues and there was an interpretation.

As for myself I have had soem real strange experiences which I know many would discount. When I told one of them to an elderly man he told me that Luther had the saame experience but at the time my own pastor discounted it when I told him.

I have ben in two services when speaking in tongues occured. One time it was when I herad John Hagee speak and he commended the lady. Years earlier I heard a person speak in tongues at a CMA Church and the pastor asked for an interpretation and there was none so he asked the lady to leave.

A friend of mine told me about one time when someone spoke in tongues and there was an interpretation.

Me personally it does nothing. I see no need for it especially in corporate worship. But I also see no need for a lot of things being done in churches today such as passing the plate and begging for money.

 

Amen, Brother DHK!

Tongues were a foreign language, not babbling.

 

DHK,

You said, 'The gift of languages was never in Greek. It was always in a foreign language.'

 

Notice there was preaching at Corinth that was understood by all who entered the worship center as suggested in I Cor. 14:6 e,f,g,h. This was like your pastors message in English every Lord's Day.

But, there was also at times when someone from the congregation spoke in 'tongues' and no one would have understood the message. This required the 'interpretation of tongues' so that message given during the service could be understood by everyone, because it was interpreted into the language of the people at Corinth. [I Cor. 14:27]

If the 'tongue' were offered in the Greek language there would have been no need for the 'interpretation of tongues.'

Notice, there were no KJV in every pew. The people were fortunate if they had one manuscript from the Apostle Paul. As theologians tell us, these manuscripts were passed around to the various churches in Asia Minor.

 

What are the “signs, wonders and miracles” spoken of in Acts? (Acts 2:22) The sign is centrally in view and the words wonder and miracle describe the sign. That is, the sign (Greek: semeion) is both a wonder (Greek: teras – something out of the ordinary) and a miracle (Greek: dunamis – “power” referring to the supernatural power necessary to bring the sign to pass.)

Signs, wonders and miracles performed through individuals were manifested on only two occasions or in two periods in the Old Testament.

Moses and Aaron manifested them surrounding Israel’s deliverance from Egypt, with a view to the nation’s entrance into the land of Canaan; and then they were manifested by Moses’ successor Joshua, surrounding Israel’s subsequent entrance into the land of Canaan. Exodus 4:29-31 tells of Moses doing the signs in front of the children of Israel. Moses cast his rod down before Pharaoh and it turned into a serpent. Moses parting the Red Sea. In Joshua 3:7, God said he would be with Joshua as he had been with Moses, and later, he had the priests stand in the Jordan, and the water stood in a heap. There are more, but you get the picture. That was the first occasion.

The second was a manifestation by Elijah and his successor Elisha, about 500 years later, in relation to creating a drought that would last for years. (1 Kings 17:1; 2 Kings 2:13) Baal was the god of rain. Israel had turned to Baal; Israel would dry up for disobedience; turning to other gods. His Kingdom will come when the whole world recognizes God as the king of kings and lord of lords, but this event would demonstrate it to the Jews. This was not an absolute drought. An absolute drought would devastate the land into an uninhabitable wasteland. But, Elijah’s miracles were judgmental (drought and fire), because of the apostasy of Israel. The Kingdom was dried up for a while. Elisha’s miracles were more miracles of compassion and healings, such as cleaning the water and adding oil to a widow’s lamp. There’s more here, but we will study that at a future time.

Numerous miracles are recorded throughout the Old Testament, but they were performed directly by God, not by individuals empowered by God. There are still miracles being performed by God today, but miracles being performed through men in the name of God was for a specific purpose that no longer exists. [Although, just as with the children of Israel and the quail, I think that if you ask for something stronly enough, God will give it to, even if it's not what he wants for you; but, just as the quail, it will make you sick!]

The manifestations during the days of Moses, Aaron and Joshua were in relation to Israel and the Kingdom. Supernatural miracles manifested through people empowered by God occurred relative to Israel being removed from Egypt and being established in Canaan. Thus, a first-mention principle was established at this point in the Scripture. Any time there is mention of signs, wonders and miracles being performed by individuals after this point, both Israel and the Kingdom must be in view.

The signs, wonders and miracles were simply the credentials for those manifesting them. Israel was to recognize the messenger as being sent from God. Whether it was Jesus or His disciples proclaiming the Kingdom, the signs, wonders and miracles were their credentials that authenticated the message. They were teaching something new; they didn’t have the NT. John 3:1-2 is a good picture of how the signs authenticated the message. Also, leprosy was considered the finger of God directly at work; it was against the law to even try to cure it. Only God could cause it and only the Messiah could heal it.

Those carrying the message to Israel manifested these supernatural works, and when Gentiles began to be added to the body of Christ, they were manifested within churches comprised of saved Gentiles. Why were they manifested in Gentile churches if they were for the Jews?

(Matthew 4:23-25) Most of the manifestations of supernatural power during the ministry of Christ and the apostles centered around bodily healings; this is during both the periods covered by both the gospel accounts and by the Book of Acts. This was the manner in which they were introduced during Christ’s ministry, and this was the manner in which they were brought to a close about three and one-half decades later during Paul’s ministry. (Acts 28:7-9)

The signs, which centered around bodily healings (though including other related things), reflected on and had to do with a dual aspect of one thing: The spiritual condition of the nation of Israel. There was an existing condition (shown prior to the healings) and a future condition (shown following the healings). They also centered around deliverance for the nation after the fashion set forth by the signs was contingent on national repentance, followed by baptism (Matthew 3:1-11; 4:17, 23-25; 10:5-8; Acts 2:37, 38; 3:19-21).

Why were they manifested in Gentile churches? (Romans 10:19) Paul’s reference to this matter in his first letter to those in Corinth was made necessary because the Church in Corinth was a Gentile Church in which signs, wonders, and miracles were being manifested, with a view to provoking Israel to jealousy. God wanted to provoke Israel to make her repent. (also, Romans 11:11-14; Acts 13:44-46) Paul, viewing that which was occurring in the light of the Old Testament Scriptures, called Israel’s attention to the time and the reason when these manifestations of supernatural power would cease.

In 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, Paul called attention to the fact that the spiritual sign-gifts being manifested in the Church in Corinth (and other places as well) were only temporary, and for a revealed reason. It is evident that the three that Paul singled out, prophecies, tongues, and knowledge, would allude to the whole panorama of spiritual sign-gifts.

All of the spiritual sign-gifts would have to be looked upon together, as a unit, comprised of different parts, simply because of their interrelated purpose. They all existed for exactly the same purpose. And when the Lord saw fit to bring His purpose surrounding these gifts to a close, they would no longer exist. By “they”, I mean all of them together, delineated by the three in 1 Corinthians 13:8.

They could no longer exist. Any existence of these gifts beyond this time would be contrary to the revealed Word of God and, thus, impossible. (1 Corinthians; Acts 28:28; this salvation)

Prior to this time, Paul had the power to effect bodily healings (as a type of Israel’s healing), because the offer of the kingdom was still open to Israel as a nation (Acts 19:6, 11, 12; 28:8, 9). But after this time, when the offer of the kingdom was no longer open to the nation (when healing for Israel was set aside with the nation, with the corresponding cessation of signs, wonders, and miracles) Paul no longer possessed this power.

1 Corinthians 13:9 teaches that Paul and the others were exercising these gifts during a time of incompleteness or prior to the time when God would complete His work with Israel relative to the proffered kingdom.

1 Corinthians 13:10 then goes on to state that the time was coming when God would complete His work surrounding the re-offer of the Kingdom to Israel. Then, the things being done during the time of incompleteness would cease. (Perfect, complete, mature.)

This is exactly what occurred when the offer of the kingdom was withdrawn from Israel, with a view to God removing from the Gentiles “a people for his name.” The manifested signs, wonders, and miracles ceased. And this was in complete keeping with their usage in the Old Testament (pertaining to Israel and the kingdom), in complete keeping with their usage during the time covered by both the gospel accounts and the Book of Acts (again, pertaining to Israel and the kingdom), and in complete keeping with that which they portended (Israel’s spiritual condition, both present and future).

In Acts 28:28, Paul told the Jews for the third and last time that he was going to the Gentiles with the message that they had rejected. 3 is the number of Divine completion or perfection; in 1 Corinthians 13:10, the plan was “perfect”, mature, or complete.

At this point God set Israel aside as a nation for the remainder of the dispensation, and, correspondingly, signs, wonders, and miracles ceased. They had to cease with God’s termination of His dealings with Israel in relation to the kingdom; and they cannot again be in evidence until that future time when God resumes His dealings with Israel in relation to the kingdom.

The signs, wonders, and miracles performed through men were never given to the Gentiles as a sign, just as the Law was never given to the Gentiles. Jews can still enter, but on an individual basis, not as a nation. And although the Law was never given to Gentiles, as Christians, we’re not under the law, but neither are we above it.

I do want to point out that the gifts that ceased were the sign-gifts that were given for a revealed reason. Not all spiritual gifts ceased, just the sign-gifts. Ephesians 4:11 is written after the cessation of the sign gifts, but at this time, there were still apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors-teachers. For obvious reasons, there are no more apostles today, and that last one should be pastor-teachers, not pastors and teachers.

These are truths drawn from the Old Testament, the gospel accounts, and the Book of Acts. From a Biblical standpoint, they cannot be denied.

 

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Actually that is what the Bible says. It is a good idea to agree with the Bible, don't you think?
"How hear we every man in our own language?"

That is the idea of a miraculous gift as opposed to the carnal speaking of gibberish. The Bible emphasized "they spoke with other languages." I would rather believe the Bible than your ramblings on it. If it says they spoke with other languages, then that means they did, in spite of the philosphizing of Ray. I prefer to believe the Bible.

So when the Bible says "the gift of languages" you flat out refuse to believe it. What other doctrines do you refuse to believe?

It wasn't 10 times, except in the Corinthian Church. That is why Paul corrected them and told them 2 or 3 at the most, and then turn by turn. And if there be no interpreter let him keep silence in the church.

Yes, I totally agree. Your view is just that.
DHK

 

It was understood by all except for those that spoke in tongues. Speaking in tongues only caused chaos and confusion.
"howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." (14:2)

The tongue (foreign language) was spoken for two reasons:
1. There must have been someone in the congregation who was a foreigner, and spoke another language which language was his mother tongue. No doubt he was a travelling Jew.
2. That language was a sign to the unbelieving Jew. Read the Book of Acts. Wherever Paul went he started to speak in the synagogues first. He would never speak in a "Gentile" language in a synagogue, unless it was a miraculous gift, a gift that was a sign from God to the Jew.

Correct. That is why it wasn't in greek, as I said.

How profound of you Ray! Yet almost every Jew had access to the Old Testament, and most of them had great portions of it memorized!!
DHK

 

DHK,

You said, 'There must have been someone in the congregation who was a foreigner, and spoke another language which language was his mother tongue. No doubt he was a travelling Jew.'

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Yes, the posters are right about 'tongues' being translated correctly into foreign languages. Even when Paul says though I speak in the languages of Angels, he is being a little sarcastic because of the abuse of tongues at the Corinth Church.

Again, I say that it is very interesting that a whole charismatic movement will base a major portion of its doctrine on a gift that Paul was not very positive about.