Featured No Salvation Without the Human Element

Thanks Martin Marprelate. I sure am glad to get to speak about the wonderful truths of God. May the Lord Jesus Christ be exalted and glorified by these exchanges. That is my prayer.

One of the problems that I see with Calvinistic teachers is they have a wrong view of the doctrine of man and the doctrine of death. Death is not what Calvinism claims it is. Only the body is in the state that Calvinism puts the soul and body. Even in the case where the body is not redeemed and the soul is, it is said the body is dead. This does not mean that it is in grave clothes waiting to be buried. It means only that it is still separated from God. In the case of Romans 8 where we have this information, the saved man, that one who has the Spirit indwelling his mortal body making him alive to God and in Christ, his body is said to be dead and he is awaiting the redemption of his body at the glorification when the Lord returns to take us to the Father's house where there are many mansions.. By the way, glorification of the body is what the church is predestinated to. See these verses where the subject is dealt with.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Paul writes this letter in 58 AD. The church of Jesus Christ is now 28 years old. Thousands and thousands of sinner have been saved and are in the church at this time. He is addressing this letter to actual people who are alive and contemporaneous with him. He uses the present tense. The body IS dead because of sin. If the born again experience was reckoned to a resurrection of a dead body don't you think he would have said the body WAS dead?

So, no, Calvinism is wrong about the born again experience of a man being like a resurrection of the body of Lazarus in John 12 or Israel in Ezekiel 37.

The body is yet to be redeemed sometime in the future. Compare these two verses and read and understand the context;

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
So, as a side note, adoption is not being saved to become a son of God, but adoption is the acts of God where he gives the child of God joint inheritance with his firstborn son, Jesus Christ.

Here is what Paul explains about our new birth; I will quote;

2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I do not know if people just gloss over a startling revelation like this or not. Maybe some people think Paul is writing conversationally rather than trying to instruct us in our new found position in Christ. I just don't know but I will ask how often have you preached on this topic of being a NEW man? The resurrection of an old dead body that is laying in the grave with grave clothes is not a proper illustration for a new man.That old body is a hindrance to our Christian walk;

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Matt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Lazarus and Israel in Ezekiel were the same man when they were resurrected. They represent the new birth of a nation, not a new man in Christ.

Ephesians is a revelation and explanation of "the mystery of Christ." A mystery in scripture is God giving information that was not made known in The OT scriptures except in types and figures. They could never be known until the antitype became manifest. The reason for this is because God's history could have unfolded in a different way depending on the response of men without affecting the truths that were written and was a part of the record given to men. This is the reason one cannot find prophecy concerning the age we are living in now, the church age, the age of grace, clearly set forth in the OT.

God has mysteries and one must have a degree of revelation of the Spirit in order to understand them. This is what is meant by the following statement;

1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 4;14
Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. ...

The theme of Ephesians is one of these mysteries of God and is clearly defined in Eph 3:6. It is explained in the context. It is the mystery of Christ. This epistles tells us gentiles what wonderful blessings we are enjoying because we have been included with the Jews in Christ. If the pronouns and prepositions of this epistle does not help distinguish which of these two groups are being addressed I don't think I could help very much.

I am concerned that Calvinism gets every doctrine in the scriptures wrong. Every one. I am doubly concerned that Calvinists who say they have the Holy Ghost living in them can never be corrected with the scriptures. It makes me wonder.

 

If the Spirit is life like is said in Rom 8:9 and when he is joined to the believer in Jesus when he indwells him and God says this is eternal life and the gift of God,and a new birth why isn't being separated from him not spiritual death? In Romans 8:11 the scriptures says his entering the body is a "quickening" first for Jesus Christ at the tomb and then to the believer when he believes/ Isn't this what is said?

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The word "also" means "in addition to." The Spirit quickened Jesus at the tomb. He was dead. He was dead for three days. He was dead until his resurrection from the dead. Was he comatose while he was dead? No, he was very cognizant, but if he was not dead he could not have been resurrected from the dead. It takes someone who is dead to be raised from the dead. What happened at the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Well, our verse above says the Spirit entered into his body and quickened it. The soul and the Spirit entered into his body. Here is another testimony of God saying so;



1 Pet 3:18 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

God called it the birth of his firstborn from the dead, Jesus Christ wherein there will be many more like him.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

He is the only begotten son according to the flesh but he is the firstborn son according to the Spirit.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Paul is dealing with the firstfruits in Romans 8, Israel, that received the Spirit just as he says here. Romans 7-11 is first to be understood as a Jewish context.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time (AD 58) are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.(believing Jews in this context)

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they (the creatures), but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit (the Jews), even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Jews! Jews are the first to trust in Christ. See Acts 1-7.


A letter to Ephesians in AD 60. See Acts 10-11
13 In whom ye (gentiles, see Eph 2:11) also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Jesus Christ was dead. He received a birth. He was begotten. The Bible says so. Death was not what Calvinists say. The Spirit was separated. He was not comatose.

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The three part man can be divided, and he was.

 

Thank you Dave for responding to my comments. I am always on a learning curve and am willing to believe the scriptures as long as they are presented in context and rightly divided. I considered what you said in your first statement and thought about them for a while. What I am saying is that my mind can be changed. I have not yet learned how to use the quote feature here so I will just underline the comments I am addressing;

But it is pictured that way, JD.
It is life from the dead, both spiritually and physically...and happens in two phases for those in Jesus Christ.

1) The believer was dead in trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-5 ).
2) As Christ was raised from the dead, so are we ( Romans 6:1-11 ), though we are not yet participating in the first resurrection, our glorified bodies.
Baptism symbolizes both His resurrection from physical death, and our being raised from the dead, spiritually.

You quoted Rom 6:1-11 as claiming that baptism is a picture of life when it is actually a picture of death first.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

He says this;

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Crucified! Destroyed!

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ (to the old man)

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once:

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

If you had never seen these verses before and knew nothing of the Christian faith, taking your first look at a Bible, and someone asked you to please read those verses and tell them what is the emphasis, life or death, what do you think you would answer? I think an honest man would say they picture death to the old man, not life to the new. Baptism is for one who is born again, not one when he is born again. Ten of the eleven verses mentions death. This has to be considered. Baptism does not picture a man getting salvation and life, it pictures death and separation from his old life by burying it in a tomb and WALKING in newness of life from his very beginning. The emphasis is on dying, putting off the old man.

When Cornelius got saved in Acts 10, Peter said he had received the Holy Ghost as well as they and who could hinder him from being baptized. There would be no baptism without a new birth first. They still dwelt in the same weak bodies so they had to "reckon" them dead and not serve the flesh.


Salvation occurs for the sinner before the foundation of the world, when they were chosen in Christ and predestinated to their being adopted as a child of God ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

This is not true and it is not what the scriptures you quote say;

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

There are no names stated as being chosen because he is not speaking of individuals.If it were individuals it would be Israelite names. He has already written Romans where he described the unbelief of God's people, the Jews. He has already explained how and why the gentiles got in. It was because of the unbelief of the Jews. It does not take a literary expert to follow the logic in this epistle to know that Paul addresses two sub groups in this book. It is Jews and gentiles. It is not some Jews and some gentiles, it is just Jews and gentiles.The "us" and the "ye" pronouns in this epistle follows the division of these groups unless the context clearly dictates otherwise. Gentiles in "time past" had five major problems that Paul catalogs in chapter 2: 11-12 and then brings us back to "now" in verse 13. Look at them;

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were


1) without Christ, being
2) aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and
3) strangers from the covenants of promise,
4) having no hope, and
5) without God in the world:


13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.




Their names were written in the Book of Life at that point ( Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 ).


There is a problem with your references. Both references say "from' the foundation of the world, not "before" the foundation of the world. I am not a language teacher but I know there is a difference from before and since. The Lord does use the phrase "before" the foundation of the world but where he does is instructive and deserving of our noticing the reason.

Another issue with the book of life." there is no passage that says anyone is added to the book of life but there are warnings of names being blotted out. That too is worthy of our notice.



Salvation occurs for the sinner before the foundation of the world, when they were chosen in Christ and predestinated to their being adopted as a child of God ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

That is what Calvinism teaches but it is not what the scriptures teach.



Their faith is not the means of gaining the gift, but is instead a gift ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ) and is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of the work that God has begun in them ( Philippians 1:6 ).

Ephesians 2:8-9 is speaking of gentiles as a group, not individuals. Paul, a saved Jew, does not use the pronoun "we" but he uses the pronoun "ye". He does this in chapter 1 and in chapter 2 and in chapter 3 where he identifies the two groups he is addressing and uses words like "together," "also" "we" ye" "our" "your' etc, which should be a dead giveaway that more than one group is being spoken to. We know from reading the history in Acts that gentiles and Jews were not given the gift of the Spirit at the same time or for the same reasons. The Jews received the Spirit because he was promised in time past and the gentiles were given the Spirit and included in the body of Christ because of Jewish unbelief and to provoke them to jealousy that some of them would be saved. Rom 11 says that plainly. Read about this in Rom 11, beginning at verse 13. Therefore, I can conclude that in the beginning of the church Jews were saved under the principle of promise and gentiles were saved under the principle of grace. After the Jews lost national identity and were dispersed in AD 70, all sinners are as gentiles and are saved under the principle of grace. The context of the epistle or the chapter will not allow faith to be the gift of God. Ephesians has a purpose. That is to reveal a hidden plan to include the gentiles with Israel in the body of Christ after Israel had rejected the blessing. God calls this mystery, the mystery of Christ and it has a one verse description in Eph 3:6.

Dave, there are fundamentals to the Christian faith. I believe Calvinism denies them. Men cannot be saved without believing that salvation was is through the cross of Jesus Christ.

God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of Christ, by which the world is crucified unto me and I unto the world.

You should think about these things.

 

Morning Dave, you disagree with Peter when he reported to the other apostles at Jerusalem when they contended with him about taking the gospel to gentiles, See Acts 11:1-2.

Here is what the angel said to Cornelius in his home;

3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

The human element.

Here is what happened when Peter got there 4 days later;

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people (the Jews), and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever (includes the world) believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Being honest with Biblical texts, Did Peter think this was salvation? You be the judge and may your testimony meet you at the judgment.

11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; (salvation = receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost in the name of Jesus Christ death, burial, and resurrection) what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Now I am asking if the text that I have quoted supports your view that someone is saved before our wonderful Lord Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead?

You may be confusing "justification by faith" a concept of the OT with salvation, but justification is not salvation. God imputed a person's faith in what he said to them for righteousness, but it did not clear them from their sins. Salvation is receiving the Spirit of God after ones sins are washed away. Read Rom 4 to learn about OT justification by faith.