No Salvation Without the Human Element

[Sai]

Calvinists preach a God that forces people to love Him which is a FALSE GOSPEL and it HURTS the Truth when witnessing to unsaved folk by them essentially saying 'you are either chosen by God or you were not, your choice (AKA faith to believe) doesn't matter one quack'. You guys can word it and dress it up as deceitfully as you want but that above is in essence what ya'll believe and what ya'll preach. Which I think HURTS not only the Body of Believers but the unsaved who will see God as a God who picks based on whom He likes and not based on the Faith each person should ought to have in order to believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation.

Irrelevant because the elect will come to faith anyways

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Being born again is not a resurrection. It is never pictured that way in the scriptures.

Please read Ephesians 2:4-6.

Resurrection has to do with the body. Salvation has to do with the soul, the heart. Being born again will not change the body but it will change the heart.

The two resurrections are placed side by sidein John 5:25-29. To be sure there is a resurrection of the body, when those who have fallen asleep in Christ will rise as their new resurrection bodies are re-united with their spirits. But the spiritually dead are also made alive in the New Birth. Again, read Ephesians 1:17-20, where the power that God exerts in giving sinners new birth is likened to the power that raised Christ from the dead.

An unsaved man is not robbed of his senses. If he were he could not sin and know it. He has intellect, reason, and will. [/QUOTE}
Please don't be silly. Those who are unsaved are described as dead in trespasses and sins. They have all sorts of abilities, including the ability to sin (obviously!), but they are also slaves to sin; they can't stop sinning. 'Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.'. The word 'dead' has a meaning. Paul could have described sinners as 'ill' or 'sick' in trespasses, but he doesn't; he deliberately uses the word 'dead.' Dead people have no life. End of story.

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. Jesus Christ our Lord died on the cross as our substitute, all who have intellect, reason, and will, and he died as Adam did, both spiritually and physically and his body was placed in a tomb, his soul went to paradise, and his Spirit went to God who gave it while he was three days in the grave. However, death did not have any sin to charge him with and could not hold him and he rose from the dead, the Spirit quickening his body and his soul possessing the glorified body.

In Acts 2, after the resurrection and in due time he sent his Spirit as if it was rain from heaven in such abundance to immerse all Israel and later all the world, that whosoever would open their mouths and drink would have this life. No one can charge for the rain because there is too much of it. The Spirit was not infused on a certain few and no one was forced to drink, but the Spirit is the life of God who will indwell whoever drinks and is the life of the believer in Jesus because he was the life in him.

I don't know what you're trying to prove here, but you're not succeeding. Unsaved people have no will to trust in Christ. "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40).

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The gift of righteousness above is the Spirit and the operative word is "abundance."

Amen! There will be a vast crowd, so vast that no man can count it, of every nation, tribe, people and tongue, standing before the throne on the Last day, and that crowd does not get either bigger or smaller whether one is a Calvinist or an Arminian.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

How does one get the Spirit? Here it is;

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Amen again. BUT 'the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (2 Corinthians 2:14 again!). If God in His mercy did not open our hearts to believe, no one would be saved; not because God is stopping them, but because they will always freely exercise their will to reject Him.

Martin Marprelate, please don't think I am trying to be snarky or offensive because I am glad for the opportunity to converse with you but I charge that the Calvinist does not preach the truth about how a man is saved from his sins, among many other things.

Not snarky or offensive; just nonsense. Most of the greatest evangelists in the world have been Calvinists. Whether it be William Carey, who brought the Gospel to India, Adoniram Judson who brought it to Burma, David Brainard,who took it to the Native Americans, John Patton who took it to the South Seas, John Bunyan, or Charles Spurgeon the 'Prince of Preachers.' That is not to say that there have been no fine Arminian preachers like the Wesley brothers, but to say that Calvinists don't preach the truth is off-the-scale silly.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Salvation occurs for the sinner when he receives the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ and that requires intellect, reason, and will on the part of the sinner.

Salvation requires spiritual discernment (2 Corinthians 2:14 again).

 

[JD731]

Thanks Martin Marprelate. I sure am glad to get to speak about the wonderful truths of God. May the Lord Jesus Christ be exalted and glorified by these exchanges. That is my prayer.

One of the problems that I see with Calvinistic teachers is they have a wrong view of the doctrine of man and the doctrine of death. Death is not what Calvinism claims it is. Only the body is in the state that Calvinism puts the soul and body. Even in the case where the body is not redeemed and the soul is, it is said the body is dead. This does not mean that it is in grave clothes waiting to be buried. It means only that it is still separated from God. In the case of Romans 8 where we have this information, the saved man, that one who has the Spirit indwelling his mortal body making him alive to God and in Christ, his body is said to be dead and he is awaiting the redemption of his body at the glorification when the Lord returns to take us to the Father's house where there are many mansions.. By the way, glorification of the body is what the church is predestinated to. See these verses where the subject is dealt with.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Paul writes this letter in 58 AD. The church of Jesus Christ is now 28 years old. Thousands and thousands of sinner have been saved and are in the church at this time. He is addressing this letter to actual people who are alive and contemporaneous with him. He uses the present tense. The body IS dead because of sin. If the born again experience was reckoned to a resurrection of a dead body don't you think he would have said the body WAS dead?

So, no, Calvinism is wrong about the born again experience of a man being like a resurrection of the body of Lazarus in John 12 or Israel in Ezekiel 37.

The body is yet to be redeemed sometime in the future. Compare these two verses and read and understand the context;

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
So, as a side note, adoption is not being saved to become a son of God, but adoption is the acts of God where he gives the child of God joint inheritance with his firstborn son, Jesus Christ.

Here is what Paul explains about our new birth; I will quote;

2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I do not know if people just gloss over a startling revelation like this or not. Maybe some people think Paul is writing conversationally rather than trying to instruct us in our new found position in Christ. I just don't know but I will ask how often have you preached on this topic of being a NEW man? The resurrection of an old dead body that is laying in the grave with grave clothes is not a proper illustration for a new man.That old body is a hindrance to our Christian walk;

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Matt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Lazarus and Israel in Ezekiel were the same man when they were resurrected. They represent the new birth of a nation, not a new man in Christ.

Ephesians is a revelation and explanation of "the mystery of Christ." A mystery in scripture is God giving information that was not made known in The OT scriptures except in types and figures. They could never be known until the antitype became manifest. The reason for this is because God's history could have unfolded in a different way depending on the response of men without affecting the truths that were written and was a part of the record given to men. This is the reason one cannot find prophecy concerning the age we are living in now, the church age, the age of grace, clearly set forth in the OT.

God has mysteries and one must have a degree of revelation of the Spirit in order to understand them. This is what is meant by the following statement;

1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 4;14
Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. ...

The theme of Ephesians is one of these mysteries of God and is clearly defined in Eph 3:6. It is explained in the context. It is the mystery of Christ. This epistles tells us gentiles what wonderful blessings we are enjoying because we have been included with the Jews in Christ. If the pronouns and prepositions of this epistle does not help distinguish which of these two groups are being addressed I don't think I could help very much.

I am concerned that Calvinism gets every doctrine in the scriptures wrong. Every one. I am doubly concerned that Calvinists who say they have the Holy Ghost living in them can never be corrected with the scriptures. It makes me wonder.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Scripture emphatically denies such a premise. Here's a threefold denial of any human involvement in the birth from above:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

You mean not by the works of man?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Death is not what Calvinism claims it is.

Dead is dead. It means, without life. Someone who is dead is beyond human help. End of story. Thanks for the conversation.

 

[JD731]

Dead is dead. It means, without life. Someone who is dead is beyond human help. End of story. Thanks for the conversation.

If the Spirit is life like is said in Rom 8:9 and when he is joined to the believer in Jesus when he indwells him and God says this is eternal life and the gift of God,and a new birth why isn't being separated from him not spiritual death? In Romans 8:11 the scriptures says his entering the body is a "quickening" first for Jesus Christ at the tomb and then to the believer when he believes/ Isn't this what is said?

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The word "also" means "in addition to." The Spirit quickened Jesus at the tomb. He was dead. He was dead for three days. He was dead until his resurrection from the dead. Was he comatose while he was dead? No, he was very cognizant, but if he was not dead he could not have been resurrected from the dead. It takes someone who is dead to be raised from the dead. What happened at the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Well, our verse above says the Spirit entered into his body and quickened it. The soul and the Spirit entered into his body. Here is another testimony of God saying so;



1 Pet 3:18 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

God called it the birth of his firstborn from the dead, Jesus Christ wherein there will be many more like him.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

He is the only begotten son according to the flesh but he is the firstborn son according to the Spirit.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Paul is dealing with the firstfruits in Romans 8, Israel, that received the Spirit just as he says here. Romans 7-11 is first to be understood as a Jewish context.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time (AD 58) are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.(believing Jews in this context)

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they (the creatures), but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit (the Jews), even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Jews! Jews are the first to trust in Christ. See Acts 1-7.


A letter to Ephesians in AD 60. See Acts 10-11
13 In whom ye (gentiles, see Eph 2:11) also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Jesus Christ was dead. He received a birth. He was begotten. The Bible says so. Death was not what Calvinists say. The Spirit was separated. He was not comatose.

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The three part man can be divided, and he was.

 

[Dave G]

Being born again is not a resurrection. It is never pictured that way in the scriptures.

But it is pictured that way, JD.
It is life from the dead, both spiritually and physically...and happens in two phases for those in Jesus Christ.

1) The believer was dead in trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-5 ).
2) As Christ was raised from the dead, so are we ( Romans 6:1-11 ), though we are not yet participating in the first resurrection, our glorified bodies.
Baptism symbolizes both His resurrection from physical death, and our being raised from the dead, spiritually.

Resurrection has to do with the body.

Partly.
It also has to do with being born again.

Salvation occurs for the sinner when he receives the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Chrsi and that requires intellect, reason, and will on the part of the sinner.

Salvation occurs for the sinner before the foundation of the world, when they were chosen in Christ and predestinated to their being adopted as a child of God ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
Their names were written in the Book of Life at that point ( Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 ).

Further,
Belief is a work of God ( John 6:29 ) that only happens for those to whom it was given to ( John 6:37-40 )...the "whosoever believeth".
Those that believe were drawn with an everlasting love ( Jeremiah 31:4, John 6:44 ), and the new birth is not and never was a product of their own wills ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
Their faith is not the means of gaining the gift, but is instead a gift ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ) and is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of the work that God has begun in them ( Philippians 1:6 ).

Quite literally, the believer in Christ has been raised from the deadness of their sins, from the carnal mind that is at enmity ( odds ) with God ( Romans 8:5-9 ), and has been made a new creature in Christ ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 ).

While God does not remove our intellect, reason, or will, those things are now given a new "rudder" at the new birth.
Instead of sin always having dominion over us, that hold is now broken and it no longer has that dominion ( Romans 6:18 ).

 

[Dave G]

One of the problems that I see with Calvinistic teachers is they have a wrong view of the doctrine of man and the doctrine of death. Death is not what Calvinism claims it is. Only the body is in the state that Calvinism puts the soul and body. Even in the case where the body is not redeemed and the soul is, it is said the body is dead. This does not mean that it is in grave clothes waiting to be buried.

Death is precisely as the Bible develops, JD.

It is both spiritual "death", which describes a deadness in our affections towards God and a resistance to His commands...
and it is physical death which is when the body dies.

Eternal death is separation from God in Hell, far from His mercy and grace.
Eternal life is a permanent relationship with God and His Son, being made partakers of that mercy and grace.

If we are not born again, we are not only dead in trespasses and sins, but we will experience both a physical death and the second death...
Being cast into eternal Hell fire.

 

[Dave G]

Calvinists preach a God that forces people to love Him which is a FALSE GOSPEL and it HURTS the Truth when witnessing to unsaved folk by them essentially saying 'you are either chosen by God or you were not, your choice (AKA faith to believe) doesn't matter one quack'.

First of all, no one should preach, if they are a preacher, anything to the non-believer except what Peter and Paul did:

Acts of the Apostles 2:14-36.
Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31.
1 Corinthians 15:1-7.

For anyone to preach what you call, "Calvinism" to those who have not yet believed, is not as His apostles were commanded to do it.
In a similar respect, for anyone who preaches that God loves everyone, as they do today, they are not preaching it as Jesus did, Peter did or Paul did, either.
For example, the teaching that God would cast people that He loves into Hell, is not representative of the God of the Bible.

If preachers would simply go back to how it was originally preached, we would not be subjected with Gospel presentations that are laced with bits of things that are only reserved for those who have already believed.
To me, the truth has been hurt by people who preach a false gospel that takes the children's bread and feeds it to those who are not God's children...
His mercy and grace towards them, His patient and loving kindness towards them, and His gift of eternal life to them.


I'm sorry that you do not see that the God of the Bible is not only selective ( Matthew 11:27 ), but perfectly just in His actions;
Reserving some for Himself, and others for their just punishment.


I encourage you to keep up your studies, it's all in there.

 

[Dave G]

You guys can word it and dress it up as deceitfully as you want but that above is in essence what ya'll believe and what ya'll preach. Which I think HURTS not only the Body of Believers but the unsaved who will see God as a God who picks based on whom He likes and not based on the Faith each person should ought to have in order to believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation.

My dear sister, I have a bit of news for you ( and I am sorry if you find this troubling ):

The unsaved generally don't care about God, unless it's for some selfish reason.
They see the preaching of the cross as foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ) and will always see it as such.
How we dress it up, on either "side", will not ever lead one to believe it, from the heart.

Most of the time, these discussions of what the Bible teaches are only happening between professing believers, not unbelievers.
The unsaved see God as "the bad guy" for commanding them to repent ( John 3:19-20 ) and believe on His Son...
Which will never happen for someone who is not confronted with their need of a Saviour during the preaching of His word and by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Bringing someone to Christ in faith is the work of the Holy Spirit alone,
and the work of God is not and never was dependent upon how we present it.

That so many today give in to "front-loading" the Gospel with the benefits of eternal life that are only given to those that are in Christ, is a testament to the fact that barely anyone, anymore, preaches the Gospel as it is intended by the Lord to be preached...
In its most basic form:

" Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 after that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. " ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-6 ).

Christ was crucified and died for sinners, rose again the 3rd day, and was seen of many.

There it is, and there it is as it is intended to be preached, outwardly and outside the churches.
Christ crucified for sinners, the preaching of the cross...


Just as Peter, Paul, Phillip and the rest were all given to preach it.

 

[Dave G]

@Miss E:

Inside the churches, the Gospel is to be further developed in accordance with what the rest of the Scriptures teach:
That it is not because of our works of righteousness that we are saved, but because of His mercy that He saved us...


" For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:3-7 ).

We are justified by His grace and are made heirs ( we don't make ourselves heirs by believing ) because of that grace...
Which was given to us before the world began:

" Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, " ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ).


Also, the very privilege of believing on Christ was given to us, as His sheep:

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 ).

These are the truths that are reserved for the ears of God's children, and should never be told to those who have not demonstrated God's work of grace in their lives.
Even more, the Bible ( not "Calvinism", not "Arminianism", not "Wesleyanism" and not "Molinism" ) is where we find those answers, sister.
The very words on the page are where the details are developed, and those details explain how and why anyone is truly saved.


Personally, I don't look at the Bible through the "lens" of Calvin's teachings and I never have;
My attitude was always to let the Bible speak for itself, ever since I came to Christ 42 years ago this past May.
However, I can, in all honesty, say that I was carried away from that, especially early on, by the teachings of the churches I was once a member of...
But those teachings have faded over the years.

I can also see that you are quite firm in your disagreement of election, predestination, man's nature as it has become after Adam and Eve fell, and various other subjects...

But in your apparent hatred of all things "Calvinist", I'd like to remind you not to rail on others, nor to speak evil of men.
Those are the standards of conduct that all believers are to follow, as He has commanded us to.


Again, may the Lord bless you greatly in your continued studies, and I feel compelled to add:
May you always remember that He is your Deliverer in time of need.

 

[Calminian]

I agree that there is no salvation of humans without the existence of humans.

 

[Dave G]

God is not saving anyone without the faithful witness of another person.

JD,
There are many people in the Old Testament ( and some in the New ) that would disagree with you.

Abel, for starters.
Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Samuel and Paul.
Not one of them, that we know of, was ever witnessed to in order to "become saved".

Now, if you were to say that not one person was ever born again outside of the power of the Holy Spirit and having believed the word of god, I would agree with you.

Our New Testament is a compilation of the testimonies of eye witnesses of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ who heard his teachings. Anyone who is saved must believe what these men wrote.

Nowadays, I'd say, yes, that is what I see in Scripture when I read it:

" Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" ( John 17:20 ).

" For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." ( Romans 10:11-17 )

" For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." ( 1 Corinthians 1:21 ).

I see that there is a "human element" that God is pleased to use, especially nowadays.
Was that human element always present?

No.

Before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, men were "justified" by faith in what God said to them.

I agree.

 

[Dave G]

The first gentile to ever be saved, Cornelius of Acts 10, an Italian, desired to be saved and God did not save him until he had sent for a preacher of the gospel of Christ who preached to him and his household. Salvation for them was simultaneous with receiving the Holy Ghost into their mortal bodies, when they believed the witness of the preacher. Cornelius had all the evidence of a believer before he received the gift of the Spirit, but he was not saved until God gave him the Spirit, according to Peter in his defense of his actions to the Jews in the next chapter.

I disagree, JD.
Cornelius was not born again before he received the gift of the Spirit.
But he was saved.

Side note:

Something to think about...
If being given the Spirit is a gift ( which you've stated above and I've underlined ), then if someone has to do something to get it, then it's not a gift, is it?
It becomes a reward for performing the correct action or set of actions, doesn't it?

So, if it's a gift, then it's given freely and without God requiring something in payment, isn't it?
Our faith is not enough to pay God for His gifts, JD.
It never was.
His Son's blood is far more expensive than our simple act of belief could ever purchase.

Back to the main point:

You're forgetting about the biblical teaching of election, JD.
God decided to save him long before Cornelius was ever born ( Matthew 25:34, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9 ).
But the Gospel, more specifically the word of God, is the Lord's means of notifying someone of their salvation.
People are saved by or through the Gospel, like a vehicle...

Think of it like this:

Your car is the only means of getting you to work...
But unless and until you actually get in it and drive there, you will never get to work.
So works the Gospel.

Until we hear and believe God's word about our sinful condition and His Son's sacrifice for us, we do not begin to partake in the gift of eternal life that the Lord has decided to give us, when He gave us to His Son...
Who has the responsibility to give that gift of eternal life to only those that were given to Him by the Father ( John 6:64-65, John 17:2-3 ).

After we hear it and believe it, we not only have everlasting life ( which was given to us by Jesus Christ ), we then begin to grow in both grace and knowledge, as well as beginning to see and understand, in His word, all of the things that He has given to us as His children;



Things that we would not have seen or believed before, we now come to see and believe because of His Holy Spirit that He has placed within each and every one of us who believe ( see 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).

 

[Sai]

I disagree, JD.
Cornelius was not born again before he received the gift of the Spirit.
But he was saved.

Side note:

Something to think about...
If being given the Spirit is a gift ( which you've stated above and I've underlined ), then if someone has to do something to get it, then it's not a gift, is it?
It becomes a reward for performing the correct action or set of actions, doesn't it?

So, if it's a gift, then it's given freely and without God requiring something in payment, isn't it?
Our faith is not enough to pay God for His gifts, JD.
It never was.
His Son's blood is far more expensive than our simple act of belief could ever purchase.

Back to the main point:

You're forgetting about the biblical teaching of election, JD.
God decided to save him long before Cornelius was ever born ( Matthew 25:34, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9 ).
But the Gospel, more specifically the word of God, is the Lord's means of notifying someone of their salvation.
People are saved through the Gospel, like a vehicle...

Think of it like this:

Your car is the only means of getting you to work...
But unless and until you actually get in it and drive there, you will never get to work.
So works the Gospel.

Until we hear and believe God's word about our sinful condition and His Son's sacrifice for us, we do not begin to partake in the gift of eternal life that the Lord has decided to give us, when He gave us to His Son...
Who has the responsibility to give that gift of eternal life to only those that were given to Him by the Father ( John 6:64-65, John 17:2-3 ).

After we hear it and believe it, we then not only have everlasting life, we begin to grow in both grace and knowledge, and we also begin to see and understand, in His word, all the things that He has given to us as His children;

Things that we would not have seen before, we now come to see because of His Holy Spirit that He has placed within each and every one of us who believe ( see 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).

Cornelius was regenerated, or born again. The Holy Spirit regenerated all who came to faith prior to the cross. Salvation is not a pardon it is not amnesty. The cross is not the only saving instrumentality. The cross was the payment, the purchase price for salvation. Regeneration or salvation could happen prior to the work of the cross but the payment for their sin was still due.

The Old Testament saint had the Holy Spirit upon them temporarily but not in them permanently. Paul distinguishes the newborn human spirit from the indwelling Holy Spirit in his letters. Therefore it is possible and was true that the Holy Spirit regenerated the prophets and they operated from their newborn human spirit. The problem was they had the letter that killed as the rule of life for their spirituality.

The idea that Adam, Noah, Melchizedek and company were spiritually dead and unsaved is a grievous error.

 

[JD731]

Thank you Dave for responding to my comments. I am always on a learning curve and am willing to believe the scriptures as long as they are presented in context and rightly divided. I considered what you said in your first statement and thought about them for a while. What I am saying is that my mind can be changed. I have not yet learned how to use the quote feature here so I will just underline the comments I am addressing;

But it is pictured that way, JD.
It is life from the dead, both spiritually and physically...and happens in two phases for those in Jesus Christ.

1) The believer was dead in trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-5 ).
2) As Christ was raised from the dead, so are we ( Romans 6:1-11 ), though we are not yet participating in the first resurrection, our glorified bodies.
Baptism symbolizes both His resurrection from physical death, and our being raised from the dead, spiritually.

You quoted Rom 6:1-11 as claiming that baptism is a picture of life when it is actually a picture of death first.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

He says this;

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Crucified! Destroyed!

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ (to the old man)

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once:

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

If you had never seen these verses before and knew nothing of the Christian faith, taking your first look at a Bible, and someone asked you to please read those verses and tell them what is the emphasis, life or death, what do you think you would answer? I think an honest man would say they picture death to the old man, not life to the new. Baptism is for one who is born again, not one when he is born again. Ten of the eleven verses mentions death. This has to be considered. Baptism does not picture a man getting salvation and life, it pictures death and separation from his old life by burying it in a tomb and WALKING in newness of life from his very beginning. The emphasis is on dying, putting off the old man.

When Cornelius got saved in Acts 10, Peter said he had received the Holy Ghost as well as they and who could hinder him from being baptized. There would be no baptism without a new birth first. They still dwelt in the same weak bodies so they had to "reckon" them dead and not serve the flesh.


Salvation occurs for the sinner before the foundation of the world, when they were chosen in Christ and predestinated to their being adopted as a child of God ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

This is not true and it is not what the scriptures you quote say;

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

There are no names stated as being chosen because he is not speaking of individuals.If it were individuals it would be Israelite names. He has already written Romans where he described the unbelief of God's people, the Jews. He has already explained how and why the gentiles got in. It was because of the unbelief of the Jews. It does not take a literary expert to follow the logic in this epistle to know that Paul addresses two sub groups in this book. It is Jews and gentiles. It is not some Jews and some gentiles, it is just Jews and gentiles.The "us" and the "ye" pronouns in this epistle follows the division of these groups unless the context clearly dictates otherwise. Gentiles in "time past" had five major problems that Paul catalogs in chapter 2: 11-12 and then brings us back to "now" in verse 13. Look at them;

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were


1) without Christ, being
2) aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and
3) strangers from the covenants of promise,
4) having no hope, and
5) without God in the world:


13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.




Their names were written in the Book of Life at that point ( Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 ).


There is a problem with your references. Both references say "from' the foundation of the world, not "before" the foundation of the world. I am not a language teacher but I know there is a difference from before and since. The Lord does use the phrase "before" the foundation of the world but where he does is instructive and deserving of our noticing the reason.

Another issue with the book of life." there is no passage that says anyone is added to the book of life but there are warnings of names being blotted out. That too is worthy of our notice.



Salvation occurs for the sinner before the foundation of the world, when they were chosen in Christ and predestinated to their being adopted as a child of God ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

That is what Calvinism teaches but it is not what the scriptures teach.



Their faith is not the means of gaining the gift, but is instead a gift ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ) and is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of the work that God has begun in them ( Philippians 1:6 ).

Ephesians 2:8-9 is speaking of gentiles as a group, not individuals. Paul, a saved Jew, does not use the pronoun "we" but he uses the pronoun "ye". He does this in chapter 1 and in chapter 2 and in chapter 3 where he identifies the two groups he is addressing and uses words like "together," "also" "we" ye" "our" "your' etc, which should be a dead giveaway that more than one group is being spoken to. We know from reading the history in Acts that gentiles and Jews were not given the gift of the Spirit at the same time or for the same reasons. The Jews received the Spirit because he was promised in time past and the gentiles were given the Spirit and included in the body of Christ because of Jewish unbelief and to provoke them to jealousy that some of them would be saved. Rom 11 says that plainly. Read about this in Rom 11, beginning at verse 13. Therefore, I can conclude that in the beginning of the church Jews were saved under the principle of promise and gentiles were saved under the principle of grace. After the Jews lost national identity and were dispersed in AD 70, all sinners are as gentiles and are saved under the principle of grace. The context of the epistle or the chapter will not allow faith to be the gift of God. Ephesians has a purpose. That is to reveal a hidden plan to include the gentiles with Israel in the body of Christ after Israel had rejected the blessing. God calls this mystery, the mystery of Christ and it has a one verse description in Eph 3:6.

Dave, there are fundamentals to the Christian faith. I believe Calvinism denies them. Men cannot be saved without believing that salvation was is through the cross of Jesus Christ.

God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of Christ, by which the world is crucified unto me and I unto the world.

You should think about these things.

 

[Miss E]

@Miss E:

Inside the churches, the Gospel is to be further developed in accordance with what the rest of the Scriptures teach:
That it is not because of our works of righteousness that we are saved, but because of His mercy that He saved us...


" For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:3-7 ).

We are justified by His grace and are made heirs ( we don't make ourselves heirs by believing ) because of that grace...
Which was given to us before the world began:

" Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, " ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ).


Also, the very privilege of believing on Christ was given to us, as His sheep:

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 ).

These are the truths that are reserved for the ears of God's children, and should never be told to those who have not demonstrated God's work of grace in their lives.
Even more, the Bible ( not "Calvinism", not "Arminianism", not "Wesleyanism" and not "Molinism" ) is where we find those answers, sister.
The very words on the page are where the details are developed, and those details explain how and why anyone is truly saved.


Personally, I don't look at the Bible through the "lens" of Calvin's teachings and I never have;
My attitude was always to let the Bible speak for itself, ever since I came to Christ 42 years ago this past May.
However, I can, in all honesty, say that I was carried away from that, especially early on, by the teachings of the churches I was once a member of...
But those teachings have faded over the years.

I can also see that you are quite firm in your disagreement of election, predestination, man's nature as it has become after Adam and Eve fell, and various other subjects...

But in your apparent hatred of all things "Calvinist", I'd like to remind you not to rail on others, nor to speak evil of men.
Those are the standards of conduct that all believers are to follow, as He has commanded us to.


Again, may the Lord bless you greatly in your continued studies, and I feel compelled to add:
May you always remember that He is your Deliverer in time of need.

I'm giving an OPINION, not condemning those who believe on Calvinism's false teaching.

I don't hate anything or anyone, but I disapprove of the false teachings of predestination. God has given man a will, as well as an offer of eternal salvation to those who believe upon His Son who died for our sins. That's not changed, i'm not preaching anything but that, but YOU ALL are telling believers and non that THEIR CHOICE DOESN'T MATTER. Which means, what you are essentially saying, that a man who sins every day of his life without repentance could very well be a chosen one of God whom he reserves for salvation so that man doesn't even have to do HIS PART and believe upon Jesus Christ and repent to be saved, since God already chose him so it doesn't matter one bit.

Since you refuse to acknowledge your own false belief and have failed to provide scriptural support for your false belief and only choose to dance around the subject and refer to me as someone who is not showing the love of God to my fellow believers and un, I have no further words to say to you.

You are clearly blind in your self-righteousness, just as the Pharisees were who believed themselves worthy of God's salvation and who were already chosen as His children before time. Hopefully you will realize your folly and see God as the merciful, just God of allowing man to choose by his free will this day whom he will serve. And I have chosen, and God knew what I would choose, making Him still the all-knowing Almighty, and He has given me a strong spirit of discernment, not only allowing me to see the unbelievers in a crowd clearly but also see the false gospel(s) that professing believers preach that can and DO harm the delivering of the true Gospel to unbelievers.

You ignore the truth of what I speak because you love yourself more, thinking you are Highly Favored by God for nothing that YOU have done, that is, having faith which is counted as righteousness that all men have the opportunity to have in their heart to be saved. That is the plain thing of the matter which you fail to see. Prayers to you as well brother. <3

 

[JD731]

I disagree, JD.
Cornelius was not born again before he received the gift of the Spirit.
But he was saved.

Morning Dave, you disagree with Peter when he reported to the other apostles at Jerusalem when they contended with him about taking the gospel to gentiles, See Acts 11:1-2.

Here is what the angel said to Cornelius in his home;

3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

The human element.

Here is what happened when Peter got there 4 days later;

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people (the Jews), and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever (includes the world) believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Being honest with Biblical texts, Did Peter think this was salvation? You be the judge and may your testimony meet you at the judgment.

11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; (salvation = receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost in the name of Jesus Christ death, burial, and resurrection) what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Now I am asking if the text that I have quoted supports your view that someone is saved before our wonderful Lord Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead?

You may be confusing "justification by faith" a concept of the OT with salvation, but justification is not salvation. God imputed a person's faith in what he said to them for righteousness, but it did not clear them from their sins. Salvation is receiving the Spirit of God after ones sins are washed away. Read Rom 4 to learn about OT justification by faith.

 

[Sai]

I'm giving an OPINION, not condemning those who believe on Calvinism's false teaching. Hehehehe

 

[Dave G]

Since you refuse to acknowledge your own false belief and have failed to provide scriptural support for your false belief and only choose to dance around the subject and refer to me as someone who is not showing the love of God to my fellow believers and un, I have no further words to say to you.

You are clearly blind in your self-righteousness, just as the Pharisees were who believed themselves worthy of God's salvation and who were already chosen as His children before time.

I think you and I are having a huge disconnect, Miss E.
Firstly, I have provided quite a bit of Scriptural support for what I believe about the Bible...
Only it seems to go right over your head.

Why, I do not know.


Secondly, I am only cautioning you against the possibility of not showing the love of God to fellow believers...
not condemning you for it.
I say this because I have all-to-often condemned professing believers for things they hold to, only to find out in the future that I should have been more patient with them.

My attitude, deep down, is the exact opposite from what I think you're seeing on the screen.
To me, God's electing grace is very special and humbling...
Were it not for Him choosing me, I would have never responded favorably to the Gospel, nor would I have ever realized even the beginnings of how kind and merciful He really is.

In my heart, I do not rejoice at the reality that there are few that have been afforded the gift of eternal life ( Matthew 7:13-14 ), but instead I feel very sad that God does not save everyone.
But that is not my call to make.
He saves, and He damns...
and He does so in perfect holiness, justice and righteousness, and according to His own purposes.

I don't think you understand the depths of what the Bible has to teach about how and why the Lord has bothered to save any of us, at least not yet, but I do hope that someday He shows you what He has shown me...
The details of why He gave up His Son for those who would believe.

In the meantime, if you prefer to categorize me as "self-righteous", when that couldn't be further from the truth, then that is between you and the Lord.
I also think that you have a fair bit to learn when it comes to reading forum posts and then jumping to conclusions....
I know that I have done so far too many times, and He is still showing me about what I would be like without His grace and mercy.


Again, I wish you well, sister.
Anytime you want to wish to start a private conversation with me and ask me anything, please feel free to do so.

The door is always open.