God Knows The Future

Silverhair said:

You say they cannot cease to believe, why? Did they loose their free will?

Did you note the key word in that verse "IF" when someone choose to reject the salvation they had does God force them to go to heaven? Under your scenario He does. Does that sound like love to you?

Your OSAS has not biblical support. You have to read it into the text.

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In the OT men were justified by God the Father, the Judge of the whole earth, when they believed what God said to them. Their faith, says God, is counted or imputed to them for righteousness. A justified man cannot be condemned by sin. In the NT Jesus Christ is our justification because he rose from the dead and ever liveth to make intercession for us.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

If one does not believe the salvation of God is in a person and is eternal then he must read it out of the Bible because the faithfulness of God has been established.

You’re the one doing the eisegesis. You refute the Lord Jesus Christ when He said He gives Eternal life to all who come and He shall in no wise cast them out.

You refute Him (basically saying He’s wrong or a liar) when He tells the lost, “I never knew you.”

Yes, we have free will in day to day matters, bur a spiritual change only happens once. When satan and his angels fell, they became the devil and demons and their free will does NOT include changing back into an angel of God again.

Likewise, when a sinner becomes a saint, born again of the Word of God and the Spirit of God, a new creature, he becomes a son of God and his free will does not include the ability to transfer back into the kingdom of darkness, because he has already been translated into the kingdom of God’s dear Son. An actual Christian (not a pretender) is as saved and as safe as if he had been walking the hallways of Heaven a thousand years.

MrW said:

Then God had best not read His Bible because He will then remember what He theoretically developed amnesia about.

Be real. God knows David and Paul committed terrible sins. He does not hold those sins against. They have been forgiven, not to be remembered against them, but He knows it happened, and He knew it would happen before it happened.

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Here is an example of biblical nullification, scripture says God remembers no more and this poster says nope, God remembers everything. Nonsense

Silverhair said:

This is what I posted regarding
Omniscience
The quality or state of being omniscient; the quality of knowing everything; -- an attribute peculiar to God.

Where do you see "inherent omniscience" in that Van? You really should not spread your false accusations Van. You will be held to account for them.

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You are wasting my time pretending you cannot grasp that inherent omniscience is the modern biblical sound definition of the term.

Silverhair said:

You really should not spread your false accusations Van. You will be held to account for them.

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Wow.

Matthew 7:5

Van said:

Here is an example of biblical nullification, scripture says God remembers no more and this poster says nope, God remembers everything. Nonsense

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The problem is how you are applying that verse. It doesn't mean He has no knowledge of our past sins it means He doesn't treat us as if we did it. He doesn't hold it against us. It is as if He didn't know. It is an idiom.

MrW said:

You’re the one doing the eisegesis. You refute the Lord Jesus Christ when He said He gives Eternal life to all who come and He shall in no wise cast them out.

You refute Him (basically saying He’s wrong or a liar) when He tells the lost, “I never knew you.”

Yes, we have free will in day to day matters, bur a spiritual change only happens once. When satan and his angels fell, they became the devil and demons and their free will does NOT include changing back into an angel of God again.

Likewise, when a sinner becomes a saint, born again of the Word of God and the Spirit of God, a new creature, he becomes a son of God and his free will does not include the ability to transfer back into the kingdom of darkness, because he has already been translated into the kingdom of God’s dear Son. An actual Christian (not a pretender) is as saved and as safe as if he had been walking the hallways of Heaven a thousand years.

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@MrW how am I doing eisegesis when I quote the text of the bible? Do you not believe the bible?

Luk 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 "Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luk 8:15 "But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

I understand that you want to hold to your OSAS but this text shows you that that view is in error. When you deny scripture you are saying the Holy Spirit got it wrong. Logically if the ones on the rock believed then the ones among the thorns believed as did the ones that fell on the good ground.

Why do you try to deflect to what the demons and satan did? We are speaking of God highest creation, man. Man has a God given free will and you say he looses that free will once he is saved. Do you have scripture to support that view?

These verses show that man does indeed retain that free will so why do you deny it?

kyredneck said:

Wow.

Matthew 7:5

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You just do not like it when I point out the errors of your philosophy KY.

Van said:

You are wasting my time pretending you cannot grasp that inherent omniscience is the modern biblical sound definition of the term.

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So you do not like the definition of the term that I posted?

Inherent
Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic.

So does adding the word inherent add anything to the meaning of Omniscience? You are sounding more and more like a calvinist all the time Van.

Silverhair said:

I point out the errors of your philosophy KY.

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"...only in your deranged anti-Calvinistic mind. What you do is smear other Christians that hold dear scriptures that you refuse to believe...."
Calvinism and the problem of evil. | Page 4 | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

Silverhair said:

@MrW how am I doing eisegesis when I quote the text of the bible? Do you not believe the bible?

Luk 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 "Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luk 8:15 "But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

I understand that you want to hold to your OSAS but this text shows you that that view is in error. When you deny scripture you are saying the Holy Spirit got it wrong. Logically if the ones on the rock believed then the ones among the thorns believed as did the ones that fell on the good ground.

Why do you try to deflect to what the demons and satan did? We are speaking of God highest creation, man. Man has a God given free will and you say he looses that free will once he is saved. Do you have scripture to support that view?

These verses show that man does indeed retain that free will so why do you deny it?

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Do YOU not believe the Words that Jesus spoke?

Matthew 7:21-23. I never knew you.

Luke 8:15 are the only ones born again, saved, those whom the Lord Jesus knew.

v. 12--never believed--never saved.
v.13--believed in vain--they were never born again but only had a short-lived religious experience--convicted, not converted.
v.14--they heard, but weren't interested, never saved.
v.15--convicted, converted, born again, saved, received eternal (not temporary) life.

I never said man lost free will. I said a SAVED man's free will does NOT EXTEND to becoming an unbeliever.

Why do you purposely misquote me?

kyredneck said:

"...only in your deranged anti-Calvinistic mind. What you do is smear other Christians that hold dear scriptures that you refuse to believe...."
Calvinism and the problem of evil. | Page 4 | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

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The scriptures are clear so the question is why do you KY not believe them. I quote scripture and you disagree with what the text says. I quote calvinists and you say I do not understand calvinism.

You just can not make up your mind. If you want to hold to your calvinist philosophy that has been determined for you to do, so be it. I will just trust the Holy Spirit inspired scriptures as they are written.

But you are rather inconsistent with your philosophy. Why would you be upset with me pointing out the errors of your philosophy since God, according to your deterministic view, has determined that I do so.

MrW said:

Do YOU not believe the Words that Jesus spoke?

Matthew 7:21-23. I never knew you.

Luke 8:15 are the only ones born again, saved, those whom the Lord Jesus knew.

v. 12--never believed--never saved.
v.13--believed in vain--they were never born again but only had a short-lived religious experience--convicted, not converted.
v.14--they heard, but weren't interested, never saved.
v.15--convicted, converted, born again, saved, received eternal (not temporary) life.

I never said man lost free will. I said a SAVED man's free will does NOT EXTEND to becoming an unbeliever.

Why do you purposely misquote me?

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You just said they lost their free will, if it does not extend to them being able to reject the salvation they have then they have lost their free will.

Why do you misquote the word of God?

8:13 Those who are in rocky soil are those who hear the message with joy. These people believe for a while, but Jesus explains that their roots don’t go very deep, so when difficulty comes, they fall away.

8:14 The same seed also fell in the thorny ground. These people hear and accept the message. But as they go on their way, the message is crowded out by the cares and riches and pleasures of this life. These distractions and conflicts rob new believers of growth—they do not spend time in God’s word or with God’s people. So even though the seed has grown, it can never grow into maturity. Daily routines overcrowd and materialistic pursuits distract them, choking out God’s word so that it yields nothing.

Do YOU not believe the Words that Jesus spoke?

Matthew 7:21-23. I never knew you.

Luke 8:15 are the only ones born again, saved, those whom the Lord Jesus knew.

v. 12--never believed--never saved.
v.13--believed in vain--they were never born again but only had a short-lived religious experience--convicted, not converted.
v.14--they heard, but weren't interested, never saved.
v.15--convicted, converted, born again, saved, received eternal (not temporary) life.

I never said man lost free will. I said a SAVED man's free will does NOT EXTEND to becoming an unbeliever.

Why do you purposely misquote me?

I didn't say they lost their free will--except to become lost again. Why? Because they are a NEW CREATURE. They have been BORN AGAIN. Nobody, but nobody, if they are TRULY SAVED, would EVER want to be lost again. So, free will is effectively gone in that respect. I think genuinely saved people would do anything rather than be lost again. "To whom shall we go? You have the words of life!" Peter, to Christ.

If a man goes back to the old ways and stays there, he was never saved, because Christ never knew him.

MrW said:

Do YOU not believe the Words that Jesus spoke?

Matthew 7:21-23. I never knew you.

Luke 8:15 are the only ones born again, saved, those whom the Lord Jesus knew.

v. 12--never believed--never saved.
v.13--believed in vain--they were never born again but only had a short-lived religious experience--convicted, not converted.
v.14--they heard, but weren't interested, never saved.
v.15--convicted, converted, born again, saved, received eternal (not temporary) life.

I never said man lost free will. I said a SAVED man's free will does NOT EXTEND to becoming an unbeliever.

Why do you purposely misquote me?

I didn't say they lost their free will--except to become lost again. Why? Because they are a NEW CREATURE. They have been BORN AGAIN. Nobody, but nobody, if they are TRULY SAVED, would EVER want to be lost again. So, free will is effectively gone in that respect. I think genuinely saved people would do anything rather than be lost again. "To whom shall we go? You have the words of life!" Peter, to Christ.

If a man goes back to the old ways and stays there, he was never saved, because Christ never knew him.

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The bible does not support your view. You are just denying what Christ said and then you speculate that someone that is as you put it "are TRULY SAVED" would never reject that faith. What do you base that on? Because Peter said it does not make it a universal situation.

You are reading into the bible what you want to find. OSAS is a man made theological position. If you want to see where that idea came from then look at Calvin's Institutes Bk3/Chp 2/Sec 11&12.

You are promoting a calvinist idea with your OSAS view.

No sir. YOU deny the Words of Christ over and over again.

You are yourself destroying your own credibility.

The Calvinist position on OSAS is wrong, and much more like your own position than mine. They, just like you, believe they must persevere to the end to be saved at last.

I don’t believe. I have eternal life RIGHT NOW, not temporary, and I am preserved by God, saved already, forever, because I am preserved, not because of my ability to persevere.

Once, I believed like you. I thought my salvation could be lost if I subsequently changed my mind. Finally, I realized God gives the new birth, not me. If He foresaw me dying lost, it would be nonsense to save me and lose me, then claim He actually never saved me (knew me) at all.

MrW said:

No sir. YOU deny the Words of Christ over and over again.

You are yourself destroying your own credibility.

The Calvinist position on OSAS is wrong, and much more like your own position than mine. They, just like you, believe they must persevere to the end to be saved at last.

I don’t believe. I have eternal life RIGHT NOW, not temporary, and I am preserved by God, saved already, forever, because I am preserved, not because of my ability to persevere.

Once, I believed like you. I thought my salvation could be lost if I subsequently changed my mind. Finally, I realized God gives the new birth, not me. If He foresaw me dying lost, it would be nonsense to save me and lose me, then claim He actually never saved me (knew me) at all.

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Those that believe unto salvation must continue to believe. You do not seem to grasp that basic biblical truth. Under your OSAS view on can turn away from Christ and they will still be taken to heaven because at one time they trusted in Him for their salvation.

You are bring the word of God into question with your unbiblical ideas.

All you have to do is trust the word of God in the best know verse in the bible:
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Believes is a PAP {Present Active Participle}
Present The action is Progressive (Continuous)
Active The subject as the doer or performer of the action
Participle reflecting "- ing" or "- ed" being suffixed to the basic verb form

Now we know it is a continuous action and we know it is whoever performs the continuous action and we know that it is believing that is the continuous action. So from this one verse we know that those that have "everlasting life" are those that continue to believe.

Now by your words the free will by which they trusted in God for their salvation does not extend to them being able to later reject that salvation. So in that respect they no longer have free will according to you. So you have to answer why you do not believe what Joh 3:16 says and also why man no longer has free will so as to later reject said salvation?

If you are still in doubt we see the same thing in
Jon 3:15 "that whoever believes {PAP} in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

By holding to OSAS you are destroying your own credibility.

I am not asking you to trust what I say but rather to trust what God has said through John.

Here are a few more verses you should look at John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:40, John 6:47.

You question whether one must persevere/endure to the end to be saved.

Mat 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured {G5278} to the end who will be saved. NASB
Mat 10:22 You will be hated by everyone because of My name, but the one who perseveres {G5278} to the end will be saved. BSB

Mat 24:13 "But the one who endures {G5278} to the end, he will be saved. NSAB
Mat 24:13 But the one who perseveres {G5278} to the end will be saved. BSB

Mar 13:13 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures {G5278} to the end, he will be saved. NASB
Mar 13:13 You will be hated by everyone because of My name, but the one who perseveres {G5278} to the end will be saved. BSB

The word of God says that one must.
G5278 to preserve: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one’s faith in Christ

So again the question, why do you not believe the bible?

You can't grasp what Christ said plainly, clearly, unambiguously, said, so don't tell me what I don't grasp.

So the question is, why do you not believe Almighty God in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ?

MrW said:

You can't grasp what Christ said plainly, clearly, unambiguously, said, so don't tell me what I don't grasp.

So the question is, why do you not believe Almighty God in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ?

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Did you not read the scripture that I posted or do you just ignore what you do not want to find.

I have given you scripture that clearly shows you that your view is wrong. You on the other hand use out of context verses just as the calvinists do in the attempt to support your view.

So when I say you do not grasp the truth of scripture it is because you do not want to grasp it.

Since you think your view is correct show me clear scripture that supports your view. The problem for you is that you can not do that as there is none. OSAS is a man-made concept with no clear biblical support. The verses you pointed to do not help your case and you ignore clear text that shows you your error.

Have you even taken the time to look at the scriptures I referred to?

So I will ask you the same question, why do you not believe Almighty God in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Revmitchell said:

The problem is how you are applying that verse. It doesn't mean He has no knowledge of our past sins it means He doesn't treat us as if we did it. He doesn't hold it against us. It is as if He didn't know. It is an idiom.

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Once again you dodge the issue! Either it means He does not remember, and therefore has no knowledge of some aspect of our forgiven sins, or you are claiming scripture does not mean what it says. Full Stop