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The Heresy of Cessaitionism
- Thread starter Deadworm
- Start date
37818
Well-Known Member
Romans 2:1, Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
We are people of the inspired bible, many wh are into seeking signs and wonders seem to be people of false prophets and false apostles
There is a huge difference between seeking signs and wonders and merely being open to them.
If you aren’t at least open to them, then you are starting from a position of a lack of faith. You automatically don’t believe miracles are possible, and faith, an essential component is made absent, thus the cessation of faith brings about the cessation of miracles.
This is the salt that has lost its savour, how do you make it salty again. People have institutionalised and made unbelief a central pillar.
Christianity has been de-supernaturalised by many and it has become dry textual legalism on a page, not a reality lived. This is the problem.
I am witness miracles of healing, conversion and providence and have had visible angelic help, I have no excuse not to believe, I have seen it with my own eyes.
We hold that God still can and does miracles and healings, but not the norm as were in Acts, no extra biblically revelations, and that Rome is NOT true church, as holds to a false Gospel
If you say miracles are not the norm, you have already let a dark cloud block out the light of your faith in your heart. Doubt has supremacy, and you have forgotten that the Lord gives measure for measure.
Your doubt is just as strong as any unbeliever.
Bypass the doubt altogether and simply let Jesus operate through you, recognising that miracles don’t happen by force of your will, but by force of His Will.
“Lord,” the man said, “if you are willing, you can heal me and make me clean.”
Have that faith that is open, and leaves everything to the supremacy of His Will.
Don’t set yourself up as arbiter of what’s normal or what should be, be open without reserve to His Will.
Without Jesus we can do nothing.
However in openness, we say, I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me.
Do you see the difference in these two dispositions?
God once caused a donkey to speak. Do I believe that He can do it again if He wishes? Absolutely.
There is a Donkey Sanctuary quite near to where I live. Do I hang around there waiting for a donkey to speak? No. Do I believe that all donkeys can speak and only keep quiet because they have nothing worthwhile to say? No again.
I think that most Christians have experience of God answering prayer in remarkable ways. I think they also have experience of God NOT answering prayer.
Older members here will remember John Wimber who wrote a book called "Power Evangelism," claiming that Christians should go around doing miracles as the Lord Jesus did to impress and convert the lost. At some point, Wimber was diagnosed with cancer, and a whole pile of his charismatic friends came round to pray for him and claim his healing in Jesus' name. Wimber died of cancer.
The greatest miracle today is the New Birth, which is the raising of the spiritually dead to life (Eph. 1:15-21). Do I believe that God can raise the dead? Do I believe that He is doing that very thing today for millions of people all over the world? Absolutely. It happened to me!
I do know per Jesus should always ask in faith and trust in God to do the right thing, but as Jesus modeled perfectly to and for us, always praying with "not mine but your Will be done"
This reeks of the heretical word of faith cult, that claims toi be able to do very same signs and wonders as the Apostles did, but have ANY of them ever sufferred for Jesus as they all, even unto death for His name?
The miracles of conversion are the greatest and most important miracles.
The perfect prayer is “ Thy Will be done “, you aren’t pressing an outcome other than God’s Will be done. It’s perfect abandonment to God’s Will.
Many physical infirmities provide a spiritual good, suffering is an important lever in correcting spiritual maladies. We say character building, but it is growth in virtue. You get more patience, kindness and understanding out of person who has been through suffering, they are better people. Growth in virtue is growth in Jesus, Jesus has all the Virtues.
Sometimes a persons infirmities are meant for others to growth a heart in caring for them.
A hard, ruthless business man only be interested in accumulation, sees his child sick in hospital, he would give everything he has piled up to see his child well. His wealth and avarice gets broken in the face of his child’s suffering. He may even cry out to God for the first time witnessing that suffering, breaking his pride and self sufficiency as he falls to his knees.
I remember a priest who had a catastrophic car accident, he had to learn to walk and talk again. He had brain injury and could only hobble around carrying out his duties.
He said “ I don’t know why God has done this to me, I have given up everything for him “ with tears in his eyes.
I said “ Father, I knew you before your accident and after your accident. You are a much better man after your accident. “
This had a powerful effect on him, like he finally realised something.
Seek first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness.
Seek first the Kingdom of God and His Holy Will.
The disposition is openness to God’s Will, with faith that His Will is perfect, right and just, no matter the outcome.
I remember John Wimber as well, still have some books of his. Not sure if he understood what I am talking about, because there was a strong element of the human will being exercised.
God’s Will is something you live in, a Kingdom of His Sovereignty and Will, not just something you try to do or force with your human will.
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3)."
The OP's video decisively refutes what Baptist cessationists are saying about miracles, but Baptists would disingenously rather hide behind the consensus of the myopic Baptist Ghetto than temporarily step out and breathe the fresh air of honest and open inquiry by watching a biblically sound video that refutes their position in biblically exquisite detail.
New Living Translation
The OP's video decisively refutes what Baptist cessationists are saying about miracles, but Baptists would disingenously rather hide behind the consensus of the myopic Baptist Ghetto than temporarily step out and breathe the fresh air of honest and open inquiry by watching a biblically sound video that refutes their position in biblically exquisite detail.
New Living Translation
The only ones in church history claiming that we still have all sign gifts and prophets and apostles still were all cults, such as Mormons and sda
The Apostolic sign gifts ceased with them, as there was no record of those of gifted to do Miracles, healings etc after the Apostolic Age of the Apostles, as they were given them to confirm Jesus as promised Messiah, Lord and Redeemer, and having confirmed, we now have the much more surer witness of Canon of inspired scripturesThis video refutes 5 of the standard arguments for cessationism:
youtube critique of cessationism - Search Videos
www.bing.com
This thread will then elaborate on the grounds for continationism, a doctrine that is vital for acknowledging and promoting the work of the Holy Spirit in our era.
Do you accept the heretical word of faith and false modern day Prophets and Apostles as being of and from God then?
You attack a strawman as you misrepresent and distort what believers believe or else bear false witness.
Do you deny the completeness and sufficiency of all Scripture given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles which was completed with the end of the giving of the New Testament?
Victor Budgen wrote: “What is the final completed form of God speaking supernaturally, authoritatively, and infallibly? Is it not beyond any doubt the New Testament Scriptures? These are the prophecy to end all prophecies and are frequently termed such (Rom. 16:26; 2 Peter 1:19; Rev. 22:18)” (Charismatics, p. 76). David Cloud noted: “The New Testament was finished in the days of the apostles and sealed in the final chapter, Revelation, with a solemn warning against adding to or taking away from it” (Why We Hold, p. 81). Merrill Unger asserted: “Revelation, as it concerns the Holy Scriptures, had a specific time period and involved the inspiration of certain sovereignly chosen individuals as the recipients of the revelation. Both of these divine operations have ceased” (Introductory Guide, p. 24). John MacArthur noted: “When the Old and New Testaments were complete, God’s revelation was finished (cf. Heb. 1:1-2). Through many signs, wonders, and miracles God authenticated his Book. Is there an ongoing need for miracles to substantiate God’s revelation?” (Charismatic Chaos, p. 117). John MacArthur added: “Nothing in Scripture indicates that the miracles of the apostolic age were meant to be continuous in subsequent ages” (Ibid.).
O. Palmer Roberton wrote: “If revelation has been completed with the perfection of the New Testament Scriptures, then prophecy as the principal revelational gift has now ceased” (Final Word, p. 20). O. Palmer Robertson noted: “No further words, ideas, or supposed visions and prophecies shall supplement the completed revelation of Scripture” (p.60). Palmer Robertson noted: “This position [on continuing revelation] contradicts unequivocally the viewpoint that holds that revelation ceased at the end of the apostolic age when the authoritative writings of the New Testament were completed” (p. 88). Palmer Robertson wrote: “It is not limiting God to say that miracle-working as depicted in the New Testament occurs no more today, if God himself has determined that these signs attesting Christ and his apostles have served their purpose by confirming once and for all the foundational truth necessary for the ongoing life of Christ’s church” (p. 82). David Sorenson observed: “The greater thought is that when the writing of the New Testament was completed, the various special interim gifts of the Spirit to the early church would cease and vanish away. Hence, ‘that which is perfect’ [1 Cor. 13:10] refers to the completed New Testament” (God’s Perfect Book, p. 17). Concerning 1 Corinthians 13:10 in his commentary on this book, Gordon Clark wrote: “This raises the question: Completion of what? It could be completion of the canon. Miracles and tongues were for the purpose of guaranteeing the divine origin of apostolic doctrine. They ceased when the revelation was completed” (p. 212).
Arthur L. Johnson observed: “It seems that from the earliest times the church has held that direct revelation from God was complete and had ceased with the death of the twelve apostles and their companions, who had personally witnessed our Lord’s ministry, death, and resurrection” (Faith Misguided, p. 127). Arthur Johnson stated: “Protestantism has always insisted that this [special] revelation was completed when the writing of the Bible was finished” (p. 93). Arthur Johnson affirmed: “Biblical scholars have long maintained that there is strong implicit evidence in the Word that direct revelation was to cease with the death of those who were eye-witnesses of Christ’s life, death, and resurrection” (p. 30). Thomas Corkish noted: “When there was no written revelation, God provided signs to validate the spoken Word of His prophets”, and he added: Today no signs are given since there is no new revelation being written” (Brandenburg, Thou Shalt Keep, p. 139). Thomas Corkish observed: “There could be no improvement, revision, addition, or subtraction to perfect the Words breathed out by God” (p. 142). Kent Brandenburg wrote: “The office of the apostle and first century signs and wonders were primarily a means of authentication of the Words of God” (p. 200). Bryan Ross quoted Richard Jordan as stating: “Revelation and inspiration are complete. There is no more revelation, and there is no more inspiration” (From This Generation, Vol. 1, p. 116).
Arthur L. Johnson asserted: “Any denial, on the other hand, that the Bible is the completed revelation of God implies that God is continuing to communicate with man now as He did in the time of the writing of the Bible. This, of course, results in the position that this present-day revelation is authoritative in a way equal to or superior to the Scriptures” (Faith Misguided, p. 93). Arthur Johnson concluded: “Such a view must finally result in the position that current revelation is superior to the written Word” (Ibid.). Arthur Johnson observed: “To claim a further revelation is to deny the sufficiency and completeness of what has already been given” (p. 30). O. Palmer Robertson asserted: “Any claims to add further revelation beyond the end of God’s word as found in the completed Scriptures would be not only superfluous but blasphemous” (Final Word, p. 66). Palmer Robertson warned: “Obviously a contemporary word from God with full divine authority would rival the functioning authority of Scripture in the lives of God’s people” (p. 120). Illumination or guiding by the Holy Spirit would not be the same thing as the giving of new special revelation by inspiration of God.
O. Palmer Roberton wrote: “If revelation has been completed with the perfection of the New Testament Scriptures, then prophecy as the principal revelational gift has now ceased” (Final Word, p. 20). O. Palmer Robertson noted: “No further words, ideas, or supposed visions and prophecies shall supplement the completed revelation of Scripture” (p.60). Palmer Robertson noted: “This position [on continuing revelation] contradicts unequivocally the viewpoint that holds that revelation ceased at the end of the apostolic age when the authoritative writings of the New Testament were completed” (p. 88). Palmer Robertson wrote: “It is not limiting God to say that miracle-working as depicted in the New Testament occurs no more today, if God himself has determined that these signs attesting Christ and his apostles have served their purpose by confirming once and for all the foundational truth necessary for the ongoing life of Christ’s church” (p. 82). David Sorenson observed: “The greater thought is that when the writing of the New Testament was completed, the various special interim gifts of the Spirit to the early church would cease and vanish away. Hence, ‘that which is perfect’ [1 Cor. 13:10] refers to the completed New Testament” (God’s Perfect Book, p. 17). Concerning 1 Corinthians 13:10 in his commentary on this book, Gordon Clark wrote: “This raises the question: Completion of what? It could be completion of the canon. Miracles and tongues were for the purpose of guaranteeing the divine origin of apostolic doctrine. They ceased when the revelation was completed” (p. 212).
Arthur L. Johnson observed: “It seems that from the earliest times the church has held that direct revelation from God was complete and had ceased with the death of the twelve apostles and their companions, who had personally witnessed our Lord’s ministry, death, and resurrection” (Faith Misguided, p. 127). Arthur Johnson stated: “Protestantism has always insisted that this [special] revelation was completed when the writing of the Bible was finished” (p. 93). Arthur Johnson affirmed: “Biblical scholars have long maintained that there is strong implicit evidence in the Word that direct revelation was to cease with the death of those who were eye-witnesses of Christ’s life, death, and resurrection” (p. 30). Thomas Corkish noted: “When there was no written revelation, God provided signs to validate the spoken Word of His prophets”, and he added: Today no signs are given since there is no new revelation being written” (Brandenburg, Thou Shalt Keep, p. 139). Thomas Corkish observed: “There could be no improvement, revision, addition, or subtraction to perfect the Words breathed out by God” (p. 142). Kent Brandenburg wrote: “The office of the apostle and first century signs and wonders were primarily a means of authentication of the Words of God” (p. 200). Bryan Ross quoted Richard Jordan as stating: “Revelation and inspiration are complete. There is no more revelation, and there is no more inspiration” (From This Generation, Vol. 1, p. 116).
Arthur L. Johnson asserted: “Any denial, on the other hand, that the Bible is the completed revelation of God implies that God is continuing to communicate with man now as He did in the time of the writing of the Bible. This, of course, results in the position that this present-day revelation is authoritative in a way equal to or superior to the Scriptures” (Faith Misguided, p. 93). Arthur Johnson concluded: “Such a view must finally result in the position that current revelation is superior to the written Word” (Ibid.). Arthur Johnson observed: “To claim a further revelation is to deny the sufficiency and completeness of what has already been given” (p. 30). O. Palmer Robertson asserted: “Any claims to add further revelation beyond the end of God’s word as found in the completed Scriptures would be not only superfluous but blasphemous” (Final Word, p. 66). Palmer Robertson warned: “Obviously a contemporary word from God with full divine authority would rival the functioning authority of Scripture in the lives of God’s people” (p. 120). Illumination or guiding by the Holy Spirit would not be the same thing as the giving of new special revelation by inspiration of God.