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"Predestined According to the Purpose of Him Who Works all things According to the Counsel of His Will", Ephesians 1:11.

Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Aaron said:
LOL, what do you think it means to become a brother of Christ?

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
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Predestination is not the predetermination of who will believe, but rather the predetermination of the believer's future inheritance.

God’s foreknowledge, insofar as we can understand it, means that God knows who will accept the offer of salvation. The plan of predestination begins when we trust Christ and comes to its conclusion when we become fully like Him.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
But your god decreed that they would sin so the sin falls back to Him. That is not the God of the bible BF.
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Lets say He didnt decree it, but He foresaw b4 He created them, that they would by their own freewill sin, and go their entire life without repentance, inspite of Gods pleading with them, long suffering with them, after all that, God saw they were going to hell for their freewill choice, and created them anyway, whose responsibility was that ? Who does that fall back on ?
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
Let's discuss how God created man!

God gave man the gift to procreate, but how does that work?

There was a birth that took place in Ishmael that God did not desire. God made the promise that Sarah would conceive and bear a son, and the inheritance would go to him from Abraham.

Sarah didn't believe that and gave her servant to Abraham to bear a child. That was totally not God's will.

But did God stop that birth from taking place? No, He did not.

So it is with all who are born that God knows will not accept His Son, but He doesn't stop those people from being born.

Procreation takes its course, just as you choose who will be your wife.
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Was it Gods will to create a person whom He knew was going to hell for their sins ? Yes or No
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
BF you are forgetting that the C/R god determines all things so the ones that reject Him and sin all their lives do so because the C/R god has determined that they do so. Those thus determined could not do otherwise could they.

The bible says God desires all to come to repentance but you say He created them to go to hell. Only one cal be true BF so which is it? Should I believe the word of God or the word of man?
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So are you saying God should not have created them in the first place ?
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
You wouldn't accuse God of that if you understood how procreation works, and the true longsuffering of God.

You speak that of which you have no knowledge!
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You wouldn’t say that if you understood the definition of “Sovereign” and “Omnipotent”.

or read …

Ephesians 1:11 ”In Him we also have obtained aninheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will,”

Romans 11:33 “Oh, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!”

Hebrews 6:17 “In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath,”

Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.”

Romans 9:18 “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.”


Nothing happens that makes God say “Oops, I didn’t mean for that to happen.”
If anyone exists, it is the WILL of God that it is so.
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Aaron said:
LOL, what do you think it means to become a brother of Christ?

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Click to expand...

That doesn't mean what you think it means.

Jesus Christ is the the "only begotten Son of the Father, "The Firstborn."

Meaning He is the proto-type, so to speak, of all that follows.

We are adopted into the family of God, He is begotten of God, the Only One.

He made it possible for us to be adopted into the family of God.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
That doesn't mean what you think it means.

Jesus Christ is the the "only begotten Son of the Father, "The Firstborn."

Meaning He is the proto-type, so to speak, of all that follows.

We are adopted into the family of God, He is begotten of God, the Only One.

He made it possible for us to be adopted into the family of God.
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Sorry Charlie,

NOBODY can be conformed to the image of Christ and become His brother … and still remain lost in their sins.
You are flirting with the ”married bachelor” equivalent.
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
You wouldn’t say that if you understood the definition of “Sovereign” and “Omnipotent”.

or read …

Ephesians 1:11 ”In Him we also have obtained aninheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will,”

Romans 11:33 “Oh, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!”

Hebrews 6:17 “In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath,”

Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.”

Romans 9:18 “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.”


Nothing happens that makes God say “Oops, I didn’t mean for that to happen.”
If anyone exists, it is the WILL of God that it is so.
Click to expand...

You don't understand what a Sovereign God is, atpollard.

If you did you wouldn't post this silliness.

I could explain it all the day long, but it's a waste of time, you couldn't understand it.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Lets say He didnt decree it, but He foresaw b4 He created them, that they would by their own freewill sin, and go their entire life without repentance, inspite of Gods pleading with them, long suffering with them, after all that, God saw they were going to hell for their freewill choice, and created them anyway, whose responsibility was that ? Who does that fall back on ?
Click to expand...

Then it falls on the man as he choose freely to sin and reject the only means of salvation, faith in the risen Christ.

Even though God foresaw that he would do so God did not make him do so.

Now I fully anticipate that you will say then what is the difference. The C/R view makes God responsible and the biblical view makes the man responsible.

The C/R view also calls into question the character of God.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
So are you saying God should not have created them in the first place ?
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That is not what I said and you know full well I did not say that. I am pointing out the error of the C/R religion.

But for arguments sake lets say the C/R view is true.
Then under the C/R religion it would have been better if God had not created those that He would condemn to hell. Why should they suffer eternity in hell for something that He had determined that they would do?
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
You don't understand what a Sovereign God is, atpollard.

If you did you wouldn't post this silliness.

I could explain it all the day long, but it's a waste of time, you couldn't understand it.
Click to expand...

Actually it would be a good idea if @atpollard did tell us what he thinks “Sovereign” and “Omnipotent” mean.

But I doubt that he will do it. He will just try to deflect.
 
Aaron

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Charlie24 said:
That doesn't mean what you think it means.

Jesus Christ is the the "only begotten Son of the Father, "The Firstborn."

Meaning He is the proto-type, so to speak, of all that follows.

We are adopted into the family of God, He is begotten of God, the Only One.

He made it possible for us to be adopted into the family of God.
Click to expand...
Okay. So whether adopted or begotten. What does it mean to be a brother of Christ?

You should be careful though. In your attempt to escape the eminent conclusion, you're on the cusp of saying that a man musn't be born again. We who are saved are "born of God," "begotten of God," and "partakers of the divine nature."

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1 John 5:1 - Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:4 - For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

2 Peter 1:4 KJV - Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

None of this was true of Adam, even in his innocence. Neither is it true of the angels. It is true of Christ.

Redemption doesn't merely restore us to mankind's first estate, a little lower than the angels. It is much more glorious than that.

Romans 8:29 BBE - Because those of whom he had knowledge before they came into existence, were marked out by him to be made like his Son, so that he might be the first among a band of brothers:

Romans 8:29 NLT - For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

1 John 3:2 KJV - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I think it's abudantly clear that those who were predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, are predestined to salvation.
 
Aaron

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Silverhair said:
Predestination is not the predetermination of who will believe, but rather the predetermination of the believer's future inheritance.
Click to expand...
If one removed all the personal pronouns used in Paul's doctrines, you would have point. No matter how you slice it, it's a WHO that is predestined, not a WHAT.

Silverhair said:
God’s foreknowledge, insofar as we can understand it, means that God knows who will accept the offer of salvation. The plan of predestination begins when we trust Christ and comes to its conclusion when we become fully like Him.
Click to expand...
You keep saying that, but that is not what the Scriptures are saying.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Then it falls on the man as he choose freely to sin and reject the only means of salvation, faith in the risen Christ.

Even though God foresaw that he would do so God did not make him do so.

Now I fully anticipate that you will say then what is the difference. The C/R view makes God responsible and the biblical view makes the man responsible.

The C/R view also calls into question the character of God.
Click to expand...
So if God saw that man after being created, would freely choose to sin, and would freely reject Him and Christ all the days of their life, and finally die in their sins and suffer forever, and yet God created the people anyway, then it was Gods will that they go to Hell for their sins and for it to be their own fault.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
That is not what I said and you know full well I did not say that. I am pointing out the error of the C/R religion.

But for arguments sake lets say the C/R view is true.
Then under the C/R religion it would have been better if God had not created those that He would condemn to hell. Why should they suffer eternity in hell for something that He had determined that they would do?
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Well God isnt a fool, if He created a person knowing full well that person is going to hell for their sins, then He created that person for that purpose Duh
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Aaron said:
Okay. So whether adopted or begotten. What does it mean to be a brother of Christ?

You should be careful though. In your attempt to escape the eminent conclusion, you're on the cusp of saying that a man musn't be born again. We who are saved are "born of God," "begotten of God," and "partakers of the divine nature."

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1 John 5:1 - Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:4 - For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

2 Peter 1:4 KJV - Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

None of this was true of Adam, even in his innocence. Neither is it true of the angels. It is true of Christ.

Redemption doesn't merely restore us to mankind's first estate, a little lower than the angels. It is much more glorious than that.

Romans 8:29 BBE - Because those of whom he had knowledge before they came into existence, were marked out by him to be made like his Son, so that he might be the first among a band of brothers:

Romans 8:29 NLT - For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

1 John 3:2 KJV - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I think it's abudantly clear that those who were predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, are predestined to salvation.
Click to expand...

I'm a brother in Christ, but I'm yet to know when I meet the Creator of the universe, exactly what that relationship will be from that point.

We were predestined to a plan that ensures our salvation from a-z.

The difference between us is that I was presented with a choice to believe Christ. With the Gospel I was also given the consequences of my decision.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Aaron said:
If one removed all the personal pronouns used in Paul's doctrines, you would have point. No matter how you slice it, it's a WHO that is predestined, not a WHAT.
Click to expand...
God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son
Aaron said:
You keep saying that, but that is not what the Scriptures are saying.
Click to expand...

Actually it does, you just do not like what it says.
 
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