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Why Do Both Paul and Peter refer to The Jewish Foundation of the Church as a Nation

Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

What is the day after the 6th day for men? We call it Saturday now but they called it the 7th day. They also called it the Sabbath. God also called it the :day of the Lord in all his prophetic books. God said men ought to work 6 days and rest on the sabbath. That is what he did in his work of redemption. He worked 6 days and he finished the work and Jesus even said "it is finished." On the seventh day Jesus rested in the tomb the whole day.

They went upon a very high mountain. A mountain in scripture symbolism is a kingdom. the higher the mountain the greater the kingdom. Then Jesus was transfigured in their presence. He is described as he will be when he is glorified. The 3 apostles were there representing the church in this kingdom and they were enveloped in the cloud, representing the Holy Spirit in his relationship to the church in this kingdom of God. Moses and Elijah were there representing the OT saints and the tribulation saints who were resurrected from the dead. All those saints would hold positions at the top of the mountain. At the foot of the mountain were the nations walking in the light of the shining and glorious person of Jesus Christ. All three members of the Godhead were represented in the kingdom, Jesus transfigured, the Holy Spirit, the cloud, and the voice of God the Father who gave Jesus his authority.

This is what Jesus showed these men and he said it was the kingdom in it's power that they saw. I already know it does not matter to some what Jesus says, In this way the 3 apostles were eye witnesses of the kingdom of God and reported it to us so we can believe in the physical and earthly kingdom of God with it's divisions and splendor.

This kingdom of God is going to be visible on the earth during the 7th day of the week of thousand year days of God and he clearly says so.
Mountain in the Bible represents an elevated place where heaven meets earth. Jesus often went up there to pray.

Moses and Elijah represent the Law and the prophets.

No, God does not clearly say that the kingdom will be visible “during the 7th day of the week of thousand year days.”

You arrive at this opinion through your biblical numerology theory which is wrong.

As long as you persist in equating a biblical day with a thousand years, you will continue to err in prophecy.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Mountain in the Bible represents an elevated place where heaven meets earth. Jesus often went up there to pray.

Moses and Elijah represent the Law and the prophets.

No, God does not clearly say that the kingdom will be visible “during the 7th day of the week of thousand year days.”

You arrive at this opinion through your biblical numerology theory which is wrong.

As long as you persist in equating a biblical day with a thousand years, you will continue to err in prophecy.

Ascetic X, thank you for your thoughts on this subject but the language of Mark in Mk 9 surely shows that Jesus is equating the seventh day of the week as the visible kingdom of God. It took place after 6 days. Also he thought that a mountain represented a physical kingdom in the similitudes of the prophetic scriptures and was a long standing practice of the prophets of old.

First, Moses said these things in Ps 90 where his psalm is dealing with the concept of time. He says in that psalm about God that "a thousand years in thy sight is as yesterday when it is passed and as a watch in the night." In Hosea 12:10 the prophets says this:

Ho 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Jesus spoke to the rulers of Israel in parables, where he made some earthly thing represented a truth of God, after they sentenced him to death. When asked by the disciples why he spoke to the rulers from that point going forward in parables he answered that it was to conceal truth from them while revealing it to those who have his mind. God will not bring his mysteries to light to those who refuse to believe them. You may read about this in Mt 13.

Moses Psalm 90 is filled with similitudes. He deals with the brevity of life and identifies how long a generation is to a man. After all this he makes this statement.

12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.
This is good advice from the prophet Moses. We need to be aware of the similitudes of the days and number them.

Acts 3:22
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

The millennial reign of Christ on earth in time is said to be one thousand years long and it is identified in 30 instances over a period of nearly 900 years by 12 different prophets as being the DAY of the Lord, and always in the future tense. They are identical.

Having said all this to show you I have a Bible reason for numbering the days and this explanation is just a part of it, I understand that you have your mind made up that I am wrong about it, and that is okay. You have a right to your opinion and I respect that right. But I do not want to be perceived as arguing so this will be my last comment to you on this subject and we can continue as friends.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
@JD731

You are correct and 1 Cor 15:20-26 shows the same

There is death, the enemy of man.
Jesus the man died and has been made alive out of death, the enemy.
Those who are his, will be made alive out of the death, the enemy, when he comes again. Why is he making them alive again at this time? To rule with him?

However the enemy, the death, still reigns over the rest of the dead.

1 Cor 15:24 Thereafter the finish of the enemy, the death having reign, the rest of the dead are to be made alive. When? Just before Christ delivers up the kingdom to the Father.

The last enemy to be destroyed is, the death, when the rest of the dead are made alive.

It is not stated in 1 Cor 15 yet you know there is time involved from when he comes again unto the last enemy, the death, being destroyed by the context of verse 24 and 25. How much time?


My best guess from other scripture would be 1000 years.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Well-Known Member
They spoke about his coming in revelation glory with the earthly glorious kingdom of Jesus Christ in mind.
"in revelation glory with the earthly glorious kingdom of Jesus Christ" has NEVER been in Jesus Christ's Mind.

I haven't seen it in the Bible.

There are a lot of extra-Biblical Heresies where NO VERSES AT ALL in the Scriptures to support them
and this one of them, in your mind.
Let me remind you fellows that Jesus Christ believed that there is a future for Israel, with her 12 tribes, on the earth
Would you like to give a Scripture reference to 'remind' us?
 

Alan Dale Gross

Well-Known Member

Why Do Both Paul and Peter refer to The Jewish Foundation of the Church as a Nation​


The same reason 'they call fans of the Kentucky Wildcats' basketball team, "the Big Blue Nation", because their school color was 'blue' and those saints were a portion of the population who share their relationship with Jesus in common, just like fans of a sports team are a portion of the population who are all in favor of one team.

Although, most everyone of these people have been Saved, baptized by the Authority of God which came through God Sending John the Baptist to baptize, and were members of their local churches, once they were Established around their area.

By calling them by 'Nation' they are recognizing the Power of God these saints represent, and it is the same as calling them God's Kingdom, who are made up of all Saved souls who are alive at any given time on Earth.

As a Nation, or Kingdom they are under Jesus as their King, Who is Ruling and Reigning in His Power through them as kings and priests, with His various churches being the spearhead in the forefront in that Power of the Cause of Christ and the Business of God on Earth.

The Jewish Foundation of the Church.​


Paul and Peter were Jewish but that Jewish association, nor the Jewish economy, nor the religion of the Jews, had any influence on the Founding of the churches of the Lord Jesus Christ.

If Jesus had been baptized to induct Himself into anything relative to the Jewish Religion and Priesthood, it would have been done by a Jewish Priest. The very fact that God Sent John to baptize shows that his baptism was something New and not a continuation of any Old Testament rite or ceremony, which could make an association with Jesus church He Built having anything Jewish to do with His church's Founding, except that He was a Jew.

Jesus Walked Sixty Miles to Get a man to baptize Him.

"In those days came John the Baptist, Preaching in the Wilderness of Judea." Matthew 3:1.

God Sent John the Baptist to prepare the 'material' that Jesus would then Build His first church.

That God-Honored Official, Heavenly Blessed 'material' Jesus Used to Divinely Found and begin to Build the Kind of church that He Talked about, was the Disciples themselves who John had baptized, by the Authority of God.

Those Disciples were then Constituted as an Organic local church Organism, when they as men where Sent to Preach the Gospel personally and baptize Saved souls, individual by individual.

However, that Great Commission and the Authority to baptize were Given to His church(es) as a Divine Organization and it was to that Perpetual Organization that Jesus Promised He said, "I Am with you alway, even unto the End of the World", since He couldn't be "with" those Disciples who were all dead not too long after He Spoke those Words to them.

"And I Say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I Will Build My church;
and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18.


Jesus Founded His first church and Promised to be with her "even unto the End of the World."

"Teaching them to Observe all things whatsoever I have Commanded you:
and, lo, I Am with you alway, even unto the End of the World. Amen,"
Mathew 16:18.
 
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Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
Baptism was part of the initiation process for converts to Judaism. John the Baptist’s ministry in the Jordan River reflected this existing Jewish practice of immersion, specifically calling for repentance, and he was often referred to as "the baptizer" or "the immerser".

Jewish people in the first century practiced immersion in water (often termed "baptism" or tevilah) as a ritual act of purification, repentance, or conversion. While Levite priests performed ceremonial washings before temple service, the widespread act of immersion in a mikveh (ritual pool) was a common Jewish practice for purification from ritual impurity or to mark a spiritual change.

Because his father, Zechariah, was a Levitical priest and his mother, Elizabeth, was a descendant of Aaron, John the Baptist was of pure priestly lineage.

His father Zechariah was a Jewish high priest, of the tribe of Levi, who served in the innermost part of the temple, the Holy of Holies, and thus would have been respected among the priestly class. His wife, Elizabeth, was barren, and both were aged and childless. He was taking his turn serving in the temple when an angel appeared to him and told him that he and his wife would have a son, who would be marked by the Holy Spirit from birth, and who would be a prophet to the nation of Israel.

However, John did not follow the traditional path of a Temple priest. Instead, he separated himself from the religious establishment to live an ascetic life in the wilderness as a prophet. His lineage credentials as a priest enabled John the Baptist to baptize.

So the priestly baptism tradition of the Jewish religion was indeed continued and it retained its influence on the Christian church, which was mostly Jewish at first.

Thus this statement is wrong:

@Alan Dale Gross
Paul and Peter were Jewish but that Jewish association, nor the Jewish economy, nor the religion of the Jews, had any influence on the Founding of the churches of the Lord Jesus Christ.

If Jesus had been baptized to induct Himself into anything relative to the Jewish Religion and Priesthood, it would have been done by a Jewish Priest. The very fact that God Sent John to baptize shows that his baptism was something New and not a continuation of any Old Testament rite or ceremony, which could make an association with Jesus church He Built having anything Jewish to do with His church's Founding, except that He was a Jew.
 
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Alan Dale Gross

Well-Known Member
Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
The Literal Interpretation of the genuine New Dispensation of the New Testament called "the Regeneration".

"Walvoord cites Mt. 19:28 as proof that in the Millennium the Apostles will sit on twelve (earthly) thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. But this text says nothing whatsoever about a millennium, or one-thousand years, or a day, or The End of Time.

"To the contrary, it explicitly states that the Apostles’ rule will occur “in the Regeneration.”

And in the previous verse we see that the context of "in the Regeneration"
has to do with the Apostles when they asked the Lord,
"we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?"
and in this verse, "ye which have followed me"...
then, in the next verse,
"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My Name's Sake", "shall receive an hundred fold:"

Mark adds, "now in this time"; and Luke likewise, "in this present time", in this World;
which may be understood of as Spiritual things,
the Love of God,
the Presence of Christ,
the Comforts of the Holy Ghost,
the Communion of saints,
and the Joys and Pleasures felt in the enjoyment of these things,
being an hundred times more and better to them, than all they have left or lost for Christ's sake, nor of the temporal things, so in Mark it seems to be explained, that such shall now receive an hundred fold in a similar way.


"Now, for the literal reading and Interpretation of Mathew 19:28; "in the Regeneration."

"This clause is so placed, that it may be read in connection with the preceding words "we have forsaken all, and followed thee", and be understood of the Disciples following Christ' "in the Regeneration"; meaning, not the Grace of Regeneration in Salvation, in which they could not be said, with propriety, to follow Christ; and one of them was never a Partaker of it:

"but the New State of things is being spoken of and has to do with the churches of God, which is intended and was Foretold, and is called the Time of Reformation, or Setting all things Right,
which began upon the Sealing Up of the Law, and the Prophets,
and the Ministry of John the Baptist, and of Christ;
who both, when they began to Preach, Declared, that this Time, which they call the Kingdom of Heaven, was at Hand, and was already Ushering in at that moment
.

"Now the Twelve Apostles followed Christ here:
believed, and professed Him to be the Messiah;
they received, what the Jews called, His New Doctrine,
and Preached it to others;
they submitted to the New Ordinance of baptism,
and followed Christ, and attended Him wherever He went, working Miracles, Preaching the Gospel,
and reforming the minds and manners of men.

"Now this is the GENUINE NEW BIBLICAL DISPENSATION called 'the Regeneration', and which more manifestly took place after our Lord's Resurrection, and Ascension, and the Pouring Down of the Spirit;

Wherefore the phrase "in the Regeneration" is and may be connected with the following words,

"when the Son of man shall Sit in the Throne of His Glory in the Regeneration"
;

"not in the Resurrection of the dead, or at the Last Judgment, but in this New State of things, which now began to appear with another face: for the Apostles having a New Commission to Preach the Gospel to all the World; and being Endued with Power from on High for such Service, in a short time went every where Preaching the Word, with great success.

"Gentiles were converted, as well as Jews,
and both brought into a Gospel church state, by the Lord's New Ordinance in His churches of baptism;
the ceremonies of the Old Law being Abolished, were disused;
and again the Ordinances of baptism, and the Lord's Supper, where practised everywhere;

("In the Jews Religion Old Things Passed Away, and in Jesus Religion All Things became New:
agreeably to this the Syriac version renders the phrase, "in the New World"; and so the Persic.

"The Arabic reads it, "in the generation", or "age to come"; which the Jews so often call the World, or Age to Come, the Kingdom of the Messiah, or the Gospel Dispensation,)

"so "the Regeneration" is referring to the New Testament Church Age, which is our current Inner-Advental Period, between the Lord's First Coming and His Public Ministry and Ascension, until the Lord's Second Coming at the End of the World, when Jesus Will Separate the sheep from the goats and Create the New Heaven and New Earth.

"When the Son of man shall Sit in the Throne of His Glory", or Glorious Throne; as He did when He Ascended into Heaven, after His Earthly Ministry (Revelation 4) and Sat Down at the Right Hand of God; and was then Exalted as a Prince, and Made, or Declared to be Lord and Christ; and was Crowned in Human Nature, with Honor, and Glory, and Angels, Principalities, and Powers, made subject to Him:

"ye also shall sit upon Twelve Thrones:" for though Judas fell from his Apostleship, yet Matthias was chosen in his place, and took his position, and made up the number twelve; which is a Metaphorical Phrase, setting forth the Honour, Dignity, and Authority of their office and ministry, by which they should be

"Judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel"; Doctrinally and Practically;
by charging the Jews with the sin of crucifying Christ,
Condemning the Jews for their unbelief, and rejection of Jesus,
denouncing the Wrath of God, and the heaviest judgments that should fall upon them, as a Nation, for their sin;
and by turning from the Jews to the Gentiles, under which judgment they continue to this day."


Adapted from: Matthew 19 Gill's Exposition
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Literal Interpretation of the genuine New Dispensation of the New Testament called "the Regeneration".

"Walvoord cites Mt. 19:28 as proof that in the Millennium the Apostles will sit on twelve (earthly) thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. But this text says nothing whatsoever about a millennium, or one-thousand years, or a day, or The End of Time.

"To the contrary, it explicitly states that the Apostles’ rule will occur “in the Regeneration.”

And in the previous verse we see that the context of "in the Regeneration"
has to do with the Apostles when they asked the Lord,
"we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?"
and in this verse, "ye which have followed me"...
then, in the next verse,
"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My Name's Sake", "shall receive an hundred fold:"

Mark adds, "now in this time"; and Luke likewise, "in this present time", in this World;
which may be understood of as Spiritual things,
the Love of God,
the Presence of Christ,
the Comforts of the Holy Ghost,
the Communion of saints,
and the Joys and Pleasures felt in the enjoyment of these things,
being an hundred times more and better to them, than all they have left or lost for Christ's sake, nor of the temporal things, so in Mark it seems to be explained, that such shall now receive an hundred fold in a similar way.


"Now, for the literal reading and Interpretation of Mathew 19:28; "in the Regeneration."

"This clause is so placed, that it may be read in connection with the preceding words "we have forsaken all, and followed thee", and be understood of the Disciples following Christ' "in the Regeneration"; meaning, not the Grace of Regeneration in Salvation, in which they could not be said, with propriety, to follow Christ; and one of them was never a Partaker of it:

"but the New State of things is being spoken of and has to do with the churches of God, which is intended and was Foretold, and is called the Time of Reformation, or Setting all things Right,
which began upon the Sealing Up of the Law, and the Prophets,
and the Ministry of John the Baptist, and of Christ;
who both, when they began to Preach, Declared, that this Time, which they call the Kingdom of Heaven, was at Hand, and was already Ushering in at that moment
.

"Now the Twelve Apostles followed Christ here:
believed, and professed Him to be the Messiah;
they received, what the Jews called, His New Doctrine,
and Preached it to others;
they submitted to the New Ordinance of baptism,
and followed Christ, and attended Him wherever He went, working Miracles, Preaching the Gospel,
and reforming the minds and manners of men.

"Now this is the GENUINE NEW BIBLICAL DISPENSATION called 'the Regeneration', and which more manifestly took place after our Lord's Resurrection, and Ascension, and the Pouring Down of the Spirit;

Wherefore the phrase "in the Regeneration" is and may be connected with the following words,

"when the Son of man shall Sit in the Throne of His Glory in the Regeneration"
;

"not in the Resurrection of the dead, or at the Last Judgment, but in this New State of things, which now began to appear with another face: for the Apostles having a New Commission to Preach the Gospel to all the World; and being Endued with Power from on High for such Service, in a short time went every where Preaching the Word, with great success.

"Gentiles were converted, as well as Jews,
and both brought into a Gospel church state, by the Lord's New Ordinance in His churches of baptism;
the ceremonies of the Old Law being Abolished, were disused;
and again the Ordinances of baptism, and the Lord's Supper, where practised everywhere;

("In the Jews Religion Old Things Passed Away, and in Jesus Religion All Things became New:
agreeably to this the Syriac version renders the phrase, "in the New World"; and so the Persic.

"The Arabic reads it, "in the generation", or "age to come"; which the Jews so often call the World, or Age to Come, the Kingdom of the Messiah, or the Gospel Dispensation,)

"so "the Regeneration" is referring to the New Testament Church Age, which is our current Inner-Advental Period, between the Lord's First Coming and His Public Ministry and Ascension, until the Lord's Second Coming at the End of the World, when Jesus Will Separate the sheep from the goats and Create the New Heaven and New Earth.

"When the Son of man shall Sit in the Throne of His Glory", or Glorious Throne; as He did when He Ascended into Heaven, after His Earthly Ministry (Revelation 4) and Sat Down at the Right Hand of God; and was then Exalted as a Prince, and Made, or Declared to be Lord and Christ; and was Crowned in Human Nature, with Honor, and Glory, and Angels, Principalities, and Powers, made subject to Him:

"ye also shall sit upon Twelve Thrones:" for though Judas fell from his Apostleship, yet Matthias was chosen in his place, and took his position, and made up the number twelve; which is a Metaphorical Phrase, setting forth the Honour, Dignity, and Authority of their office and ministry, by which they should be

"Judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel"; Doctrinally and Practically;
by charging the Jews with the sin of crucifying Christ,
Condemning the Jews for their unbelief, and rejection of Jesus,
denouncing the Wrath of God, and the heaviest judgments that should fall upon them, as a Nation, for their sin;
and by turning from the Jews to the Gentiles, under which judgment they continue to this day."


Adapted from: Matthew 19 Gill's Exposition

for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, (1) a first-fruit Christ, (2) afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, 1 Cor 15:22,23

If made alive out of the dead above is not regeneration then please tell me exactly what it is? That is a question. Another question. Does 2 follow 1 in the above scripture? Does 2 follow 1 in regeneration and does 2 take place immediately before Christ sits on the throne of his glory and will the twelve sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel?

Help verses.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Matt 25:32
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Col 3:4
 
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JD731

Well-Known Member
The Literal Interpretation of the genuine New Dispensation of the New Testament called "the Regeneration".

"Walvoord cites Mt. 19:28 as proof that in the Millennium the Apostles will sit on twelve (earthly) thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. But this text says nothing whatsoever about a millennium, or one-thousand years, or a day, or The End of Time.

...................

"so "the Regeneration" is referring to the New Testament Church Age, which is our current Inner-Advental Period, between the Lord's First Coming and His Public Ministry and Ascension, until the Lord's Second Coming at the End of the World, when Jesus Will Separate the sheep from the goats and Create the New Heaven and New Earth.

A short time later, after a clear simple question from the apostles about their rewards in the kingdom, Jesus Christ, the son of God ,answered with simple words that a below average 5th grader would have no problem understanding. Just a little bit of reason would, without even straining the mind, teach you that these 12 apostles are not sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel now. Their bodies are in the dust of the earth from whence they came. They have not been resurrected but they did die. It is unreasonable to believe that they are sitting on thrones somewhere. Neither is the church of Jesus Christ, which is his body, divided into 12 separate and different parts. When defining the church Paul said the following knowing the twelve tribes of Israel is not a body.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism (the baptism by the Spirit into the body),
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (the Godhead is a unified one with three members with different functions)

The church is a unified one with many members in the same way that a physical body is a single person with many members with various but necessary functions of it's parts in unison for the body to perform according to it's design. This is explained in such simple terms in 1 Corinthians 12 that the numbest among us should be able to understand it.

I am giving my opinion about your quote from Gill based on what I read in the scriptures of men who were there with Jesus. Mind you, it is my opinion and you do not have to believe it.

I believe Gill whom you quoted, and those like him, were driven by the spirit of antichrist that appeared very early during the church age. John said this in AD 90.


1 Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: (meaning the last days or the last 3 days of God in time, 4 days having already passed) and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Paul said this in his letter to the Thessalonians in 51 AD:
2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (hinders) will let (hinder), until he be taken out of the way (of the revelation of the man of sin).

This mystery was already at work way back then and it is far worse now two thousand years later.

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Time that is coming on the earth and is here now.
2 Ti 4: I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

If the spirit of iniquity is a mystery then one will need the Spirit of Christ to reveal it's secrets.

Jesus Christ did not lie to his apostles in Mt 19. One thing I know for sure is that they have not yet set on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel and I know that Jesus Christ is at this time sitting on the throne of his Father in heaven. I know that because I believe simple words that says it.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

This is a prophetic theme of the prophets and you and Gill deny it.
 
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kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Same ol’ Dispy Jew-worshiping.

Tell me. What must one do to bless Israel in order to obtain blessing from God? Are there instructions given for that? Don't see it given here:

Micah Chapter 6

6​

Wherewith shall I come before Jehovah, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt-offerings, with calves a year old?

7​

will Jehovah be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8​

He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Also, was this given before or after circumcision?

Who are the seed of Abraham?
 
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Alan Dale Gross

Well-Known Member
Under to O.P., "The Jewish Foundation of the Church".

Thus this statement is wrong:

@Alan Dale Gross
I know of no evidence that any of the following quoted statements are 'wrong'
and I do not believe any evidence exists;

Paul and Peter were Jewish but that Jewish association, nor the Jewish economy, nor the religion of the Jews,
had any influence on the Founding of the churches of the Lord Jesus Christ.
If Jesus had been baptized to induct Himself into anything relative to the Jewish Religion and Priesthood,
it would have been done by a Jewish Priest
.
The very fact that God Sent John to baptize shows that his baptism was something New
and not a continuation of any Old Testament rite or ceremony, which could make an association with Jesus church He Built
having anything Jewish to do with His church's Founding, except that He was a Jew.
Jesus Walked Sixty Miles to Get a man to baptize Him.

Adapted from: A Body of Practical Divinity by John Gill, Chapter 5
Complete unabridged article attached, with original article with footnotes is here.

THE REASONS WHY CHRISTIAN BAPTISM IS NOT FOUNDED ON,
NOR TAKEN FROM, THE PRETENDED JEWISH BAPTISM OF ISRAELITES AND PROSELYTES.


I shall now proceed to give reasons, why Christian baptism cannot be thought to be taken from such a custom;
nor that to be a rule according to which it is to be practiced.

1. First, the Talmuds are of too late a date to prove that such a custom obtained before the times of John and Christ, since they were written some centuries after those times
, as has been shown; and besides, there is in them a plain chronological mark, or character, which shows that this custom took place among the Jews since they were driven out of their own land, and scattered among the nations, and suffered reproach and persecution;

Many are the surmises and conjectures of learned men concerning the original and rise of this custom...I say, I have met with a quotation by Maimonides,500 out of a book called Siphri, an ancient commentary on Numbers and Deuteronomy, which has these words: “As the Israelites did not enter into covenant but by three things, by circumcision, dipping, and acceptation of sacrifice; so neither proselytes likewise.”

Now if this is the ancient book of Siphri, from whence this passage is taken, as may seem, which is a book of an uncertain author and age; and is allowed to be written after the Misnah;501 yet if it is the same that is referred to in the Babylonian Talmud502 it must be written before that was published, though it might be while it was compiling, and it may be, by some concerned in it; since the rite referred to is expressed in the same words in the one as in the other;503 and is founded upon and argued from the same passage of scripture, (Num. 15:15) and seems to be the language and reasoning of the same persons.

However, “if” the passage quoted by Maimonides stands in that book, which is a book I never saw, though printed;

“if”, I say, these several things can be made plain;

it is indeed the earliest testimony we have of this custom; especially if the book was written before the Jerusalem Talmud, which yet is not certain:

but be it as it may, it is a testimony of the same sort of persons, and of no better authority than what has been before produced, and serves to confirm, that this custom is a pure device of the Jewish doctors, and is merely “Rabbinical”; and besides, at most, it can only carry up this custom into the “fifth” century, which is too late for John Baptist and Christ to take up the ordinance from it;

and on account of these testimonies not being early enough for such a purpose, the late Dr. Jennings504 has given up the argument from them, in favor of infant baptism, as insufficient.

His words are, “After all, it remains to be proved, not only that Christian baptism was instituted in the room of proselyte baptism; but that the Jews had any such baptism in our Savior's time: the earliest accounts we have of it, are in the Mishna (but in that we have none at all) and Gemara.”

And again he says, “here wants more evidence of its being as ancient as our Savior’s time, than I apprehend can be produced to ground an argument upon it, in relation to Christian baptism.”

2. Secondly, this custom, though observed as a religious action, yet has scarce any appearance of religion and devotion in it; but looks rather like a civil affair, it being in some cases under the cognizance and by the direction of the Sanhedrim, or Court of Judicature. There was no divine solemnity in the performance of it.

It was not administered in the name of the God of Israel, whom the Jews professed;

nor in the name of the Messiah to come, expected by them, as was the baptism of John;

nor in the name of the Three divine Persons in the Trinity, which yet the ancient Jews believed.

They dipped their proselytes indeed, according to their account, םשב “in the name” of a proselyte, or as one; and a servant, “in the name” of a servant, or on account of servitude; and a free man, “in the name” of a free man; but neither of them in the Name of any Divine Person, or with the Invocation of the Name of God; so that it had no appearance of a religious solemnity in it.

To which may be added, that this custom gave a licence to things the most impure and abominable, things contrary to the light of nature, and not to be named among the Gentiles, and which must make it detestable to all serious persons.

According to the Jews, it dissolved all the ties of natural relations, which before subsisted among men; for according to them, “As soon as a man is made a proselyte, a soul flies out of a (celestial) palace, and gets under the wings of the Shechinah, (or divine Majesty) which kisses it, because it is the fruit of the righteous, and sends it into the body of a proselyte, where it abides; and from that time he is called a proselyte of righteousness;505 so that now he has a new soul, and is a new man, another man than he was before; ” not a better man, but, to use our Lord’s words, he is made “twofold more the child of Hell”...

Now can any man, soberly thinking, judge that the New Testament ordinance of baptism was taken up by John and Christ from such a wretched custom, which gave license to such shocking immorality and uncleanness; or that Christian baptism is built on such a basis as this?

Con't
 

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Alan Dale Gross

Well-Known Member
His lineage credentials as a priest enabled John the Baptist to baptize.
John the Baptist was Saved in his mother's womb and was Sent from God to baptize with the Authority of God, as a part of the Whole Counsel and Manifold Wisdom of God for those baptized, including Jesus Christ, to Fulfill All Righteousness.

3. Thirdly, to suppose that John took up the practice of baptizing as he found it among the Jews, and from a tradition and custom of theirs, greatly detracts from the character of John, his Divine Mission, and the Credit of baptism, as Administered by him; and is contrary to what the scriptures say concerning him. The scriptures represent John the Baptist as the first Administrator of baptism, and, for a while, the sole Administrator of baptism; for, for what other reason do they call him the Baptist, and distinguish him by this title, if it was then a common thing, and had been usual in time past, to baptize persons? The scriptures say he was a man sent of God, and Sent by Him “to baptize with water” (John 1:6, 33).

But what need was there of a mission and commission to what was in common use, and had been so time out of mind? The Jews hearing of John’s baptizing persons, sent messengers to him, to know who he was that took upon him to baptize; who asked, “Why baptizest thou, if thou art not that Christ, nor Elijah, nor that Prophet?” As if it was a New thing; and that it was expected he should be some extraordinary person who baptized.

But why should such questions be put to him, if this was in common use, and if any ordinary person, however any common doctor or Rabbi, had then, and in former times, been used to baptize persons?507 The scriptures speak of John’s baptism as the “Counsel of God”: but according to this notion, it was a device and tradition of men;

and had this been the case, the Jews would not have been at a loss, nor under any difficulty, to answer the question Christ put to them, nor indeed, would he ever have put such an one; “The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or from men?” for His putting the question thus, supposes the contrary, that it was not from men, but from God: and if it was not of God, but a tradition of men, they could have readily said, “Of men”; without being confuted by Him, or exposed to the people; but being thrown into a dilemma, they took the wisest way for themselves, and answered, “We cannot tell”...

When John first appeared baptizing, the Pharisees and Sadducees, who were natural Jews, came to his baptism, and were not admitted to it, but Rejected from it, as unfit and improper persons; and others of the same Nation and profession, in their turn, “rejected the Counsel of God against themselves, not being baptized by John”, (Matthew 3:7; Luke 7:30).

On the other hand, publicans, the Roman tax gatherers, of whom some indeed were Jews, others heathens, both equally odious, and therefore joined together, these “justified God”, being baptized with the baptism of John; and these “went into the kingdom of God”, into the Gospel State, before the Pharisees, and embraced its Doctrines, and submitted to its Ordinances, (Luke 7:29 3:12; Matthew 21:31)

and even soldiers, Roman soldiers, for no other soldiers were then in Judea, were among the multitude who came to be baptized by him, to whom he gave good instructions, but did not refuse to baptize them, (Luke 3:7, 14)

and our Lord Jesus Christ, whose forerunner John was in His Ministry and baptism, Gave Orders to His Disciples to baptize indiscriminately persons of all Nations, Jews and Gentiles, who believed in him;

and who accordingly did baptize them: so that baptism, in those early times of John, Christ, and his Apostles, was not confined to Natural Jews; the wonder and the question upon it, as above, were not about the persons baptized, whether Jews or Gentiles, but about baptism itself, and the Administrator of it, as being altogether New...


he was often referred to as "the baptizer" or "the immerser".
Where do you think John the Baptist was called "the baptizer", or "the immerser", during his time ministry?

Yet, while you press the point that he was ever called "the baptizer", or "the immerser", in doing so, you give emphasis to the reality that John the Baptist WAS THE FIRST BAPTIZER AND IMMERSER AS THE GOD CALLED ADMINISTRATOR OF BAPTISM, OR IMMERSION, EVER. See #8.


"The wonder and the question upon the baptism of John, as above, were not about the persons baptized, whether Jews or Gentiles, but about baptism itself, and the Administrator of it, as being altogether New..."

Jewish Ritual Immersion never involved an Administrator of that bathing, because all of it cadidates were self-immersed, while John the Baptist was Called and personally instrumental in being the first one who baptized others, as the Administrator of their baptism.


John was a religious and good man, but, with the scriptures, that he was surnamed ‘the Baptist’, to distinguish him from others; and that he ordered the Jews who lived righteous and godly lives to come to baptism, and such only did John admit of; and that baptizing was acceptable to God, when used not for removing some sins (by which his baptism is distinguished from Jewish baptisms, which were used to purge from sin in a ceremonial sense) but for the purity of the body, the soul being before purified by Righteousness. Also he observes, with the scriptures, that multitudes flocked to John the Baptist; and that Herod, fearing that by his means his subjects would be drawn into a revolt, put him to death.

But why such flockings to him, if baptism had been a common thing?

And what had Herod to fear from that? He might reasonably conclude, that if this was no other than what had been usually practiced, the people would soon cease from following him. Nay, Josippon Ben Gorion511 the Jew’s Josephus, the historian whom they value and prefer to the true Josephus, says of that הליבט השע “he made”, instituted, and performed baptism, as if it was a new thing, founded by him; and for which later Jews express their resentment at him.

One of their virulent writers says512 “Who commanded John to institute this baptism? in what law did he find it? neither in the Old nor in the New.” Now this would not be said by the Jews, if John had taken up his baptism from a custom of theirs; nor would they speak of the Ordinance of baptism in such a scandalous and blasphemous manner as they do, and in language too shocking to transcribe513 4.

Fourthly, the Jews will not allow that any proof of baptism can be produced out of the writings of the Old Testament, nor out of their Talmuds. Such passages in the Old Testament which speak of washing, and in which men are exhorted to “wash” and be “clean”,

as Isaiah 1:16 it is said, are to be understood of men cleansing themselves from their sins, and not of plunging in water; “To plunge a man in water, is no where written; why therefore did Jesus command such baptism,” or dipping?514

and whereas the passage in Ezekiel 16:9, “Then washed I thee with water”, is by some interpreted of baptism; the Jew observes515 the words are not in the future tense; “I will wash thee”: but in the past tense; “I have washed thee”; and so cannot refer to baptism.

And whereas the promise in Ezekiel 36:25, “I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean from all your filthiness”, &c. is brought by some, I suppose he means some popish writers, as another proof of baptism the Jews replies516 “What sin and uncleanness does baptism take away? and what sin and uncleanness are there in newborn babes? Besides, says he, you do not do so; you do not sprinkle, but you are plunged into water:” which, by the way, shows that sprinkling was not used in baptism when this Jew wrote, which was in the twelfth century, as Wagenseil, the editor of his work, supposes. The same Jewish writer517 asks, “If the law of Jesus, and His coming, were known to the Prophets, why did not they observe His Law? and why did not they ‘baptize themselves’, according to the Law of Jesus?”..

But that the Jews had no notion that Christian baptism was founded upon any prior baptism of proselytes, or others, among them, as related in their Talmud, is manifest from a disputation had between Nachmanides, a famous Jew, and one brother Paul, a Christian, in the year 1263.521...

Con't
 

Alan Dale Gross

Well-Known Member
5. Fifthly, to say, as Dr. Lightfoot does, that Christ took baptism into His Hands as He found it, that is, as it was practised by the Jews, is greatly to derogate from the Character and Authority of Jesus Christ; and it makes Him, Who came a Teacher from God, to Teach for Doctrines the commandments of men, which He Himself Condemns.

It makes that “All Power in Heaven and in Earth”, said to be given Him, in consequence of which He Gave His Apostles a Commission to “Teach all Nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”;

I say, it makes it to dwindle into this only, ‘a power to establish a tradition’, and ‘commandment of men’ long in use before Jesus Came.

Again, who can believe that Christ, Who so Severely Inveighed against the traditions of the Jews, could ever establish any one of them, and make it an Ordinance of His; and particularly, should Inveigh against those, respecting the baptisms, or dippings of the Jews then in use among them; and especially without excepting that of their baptism of proselytes from the rest, and without declaring it His Will that it should be continued and observed; neither of which He has done.

6. Sixthly, such a notion as this highly reflects Dishonor on the Ordinance of baptism; that one of the Principal Ordinances of the New Testament, as baptism is, should be Founded on an Human Tradition, an invention of men;
it must greatly weaken the Authority of baptism, as well as disparage the Wisdom of the Lawgiver, Jesus Christ; and must have a tendency to bring both the Author and the Ordinance into Contempt.

Nothing can make an Ordinance a Christian Ordinance, but its being Instituted by Christ.

If baptism is an institution of men, and received and retained from men, and regulated according to their device, it is no Christian Ordinance
: and, as Witsius says,522 “Whatever may be said of the antiquity of that rite (proselyte baptism, which yet with him was dubious and uncertain) there can be no Divine Institution of it (of baptism) before John, the forerunner of Christ, was Sent of God to baptize; for to him that was expressly Commanded; ‘The word of God came unto John’, Luke 3:2; John 1:33, etc.”

7. Seventh, if it was the custom of the Jews before the times of John and Christ, to receive young children as proselytes by baptism, or dipping, and this was to be as a rule according to which Christian baptism was to be practised; then most surely we should have had some instances of children being baptized by John, or by the apostles of Christ, if “baptizing infants had been as ‘ordinarily used’ in the church of the Jews, as ever it hath been in the Christian church,” as Dr. Lightfoot says; and yet we have not one instance of this kind; we no where read of any children being brought to John to be baptized, nor of any that were baptized by him; nor of any being brought to the Apostles of Christ to be baptized, nor of their being baptized by them; from whence it may be concluded there was no such custom before Jesus and John the Baptist’s times;...

"the baptizer"
"the immerser"
John the Baptist

8. Eighthly, Self-baptizing, or persons baptizing themselves, without making use of an Administrator, of which John the Baptist was the first, might be encouraged and established; ...indeed, all the Jewish baptisms, or bathings, commanded in the law, were done by persons themselves (see Lev. 14:8, 9; Num. 19:7, 8)...

9. Ninthly, if this Jewish custom is to be regarded as a rule of Christian baptism, it will tend to establish the Socinian notion, that only the first converts to Christianity in a Nation, they and their children are to be baptized, but not their Posterity in after Ages;

for so both Lightfoot and Selden, with others, say, who were sticklers for Christian baptism being taken from the custom of baptizing, or dipping Jewish proselytes, and their children; that only the children of proselytes, born before their parents became such, were baptized, or dipped; but not those born afterwards: baptism was never repeated in their posterity; the sons of proselytes, in following generations, were circumcised, but not baptized;525 ...So that if the one is to be admitted, the other is also; and so the children of Christian parents are not to be baptized, only the converts from another religion; and these the first, and their then posterity, but not afterwards.

Con't
 

Alan Dale Gross

Well-Known Member
John the Baptist’s ministry in the Jordan River

10. Tenthly, if this custom, said to be practiced before the times of John and Christ, is the rule to direct us in Christian baptism, there were several circumstances attending that, which should be observed in Christian baptism, to make it regular;

'Baptism' must be done before three witnesses, and these men of eminence; but who, of such a number and character were present at the baptism of the Apostle Paul? (Acts 22:16, 9:18).

Nor was it to be performed in the night; what then must be said of the baptism of the jailor, and his family? (Acts 16:33)

nor on a Sabbath day;

nor on a feast day;

yet Lydia, and her household, were baptized on a Sabbath day, (Acts 16:13, 15)

and the three thousand Christian converts were baptized on the Day of Pentecost? and which was also the First Day of the week, the Christian Sabbath, (Acts 2:1, 41).

Wherefore, if this Jewish custom was the rule of baptism, and from whence it was taken, and by which it should proceed; (for if in one case, why not in others?) these instances of Christian baptism were not rightly performed.

11. Eleventhly, if the Ethiopian eunuch Philip baptized, was a proselyte, as Grotius and others say, he must be either a proselyte of the gate, a proselyte inhabitant, or a proselyte of righteousness; not a proselyte inhabitant, because he was no inhabitant in any part of Judea; but most probably he was a proselyte of righteousness, since he was a very devout and religious man, had an high opinion of the Worship of God among the Jews, and had traveled from a far country to worship at Jerusalem
;

WHY WASN’T HE ALREADY BAPTIZED WITH THE JEWISH RITUAL IMMERSION, THEN IF SO; he must have been rebaptized when he became a member of the Christian church at Jerusalem, of which he most certainly was, being chosen out of it, and Appointed to an office in it, (Acts 6:1, 5).

12. Twelfthly, it may be observed, in a quotation before made, that if a proselytess pregnant with child was baptized, or dipped, her child needed not baptism, or dipping, the mother’s baptism, or dipping, was sufficient for it: but this is not attended to by Paedobaptists; it seems, in the beginning of the fourth century, there were some of the same opinion with the Jews; but a canon in the Council of Neocaesarea was made against it; which, as explained, declared that the child of such a person needed baptism, when it came to be capable of choosing for itself;530 which canon should not have been made, if this Jewish custom is to be regarded as a rule.

13. Lastly, As an argument “ad hominem”, it may be observed, that if this custom is to be considered as a rule of Christian baptism, then sprinkling ought not to be used in it;
for the baptism of Jewish proselytes, men, women, and children, was performed by dipping; as all the above quotations show...

Again, as an argument of the same kind, if baptism was common in all ages, foregoing the times of John, Christ, and His Apostles, as is said, then it could not succeed circumcision, since it must be contemporary with it?

However, it does not appear that any such custom was ever practiced before the times of John, Christ, and His Apostles, as to admit into the Jewish church by baptism, proselytes, whether adult or minors. No testimony has been, and I believe none can be given of it. And, as some very learned men have truly observed,535 and as Dr. Owen536 affirms, there are not the least footsteps of any such usage among the Jews, until after the days of John the Baptist, in imitation of whom, he thinks, it was taken up by some Ante-Mishnical Rabbins;

and, as he elsewhere says,537 “The institution of the rite of baptism is no where mentioned in the Old Testament; no example is extant; nor during the Jewish church, was it ever used in the admission of proselytes; no mention of it is to be met with in Philo, Josephus, nor in Jesus the son of Syrach; nor in the Evangelic History.”

What testimony has been given of this custom, falls greatly short of proving it
; wherefore Christ could have no concern about Abolishing a custom which had not obtained in His time; nor was there any room nor reason for it, since it had never been practiced, for ought appears: Jesus Silence about what never existed, can give no existence to it, nor to that which is founded on it, Paedobaptism; and which is neither warranted and confirmed by any such custom, nor by the word of God, in which there is an high silence about both...

And after all, it is amazing that Christian baptism should be founded upon a tradition, of which there is no evidence but from the Rabbins, and that very intricate, perplexed, and contradictory, and not as in being in the times referred to; upon a tradition of a set of men blinded and besotted, and enemies to Christianity, its Doctrines and Ordinances; and who, at other times, reckoned by these very men, who so warmly urge this custom of theirs, the most stupid, sottish, and despicable, of all men upon the face of the Earth!

I conclude this Dissertation in the words of Dr. Owen,538 “That the opinion of some learned men concerning
transferring the rite of Jewish baptism, by the Lord Jesus, which, indeed, did not then exist, for the use of His Disciples, is destitute of all probability.”

And after all, perhaps, the Paedobaptists will find their account better in consulting the baptism of the ancient heathens, and its rites, than that of the Jews; said539 to be in use before the times of Moses, and in ages since, and that among all Nations; and being more ancient than Christian baptism, a learned writer referred to, says, it is as a sort of preamble to it. And from whom the Paedobaptists may be supplied with materials for their purpose.

Nothing involving First Century Jews or the Jewish Religion
had ANYTHING TO DO to with "THE FOUNDING OF THE LORD’S CHURCHES".
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Same ol’ Dispy Jew-worshiping.

Tell me. What must one do to bless Israel in order to obtain blessing from God? Are there instructions given for that? Don't see it given here:

Micah Chapter 6

6​

Wherewith shall I come before Jehovah, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt-offerings, with calves a year old?

7​

will Jehovah be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8​

He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Also, was this given before or after circumcision?

Who are the seed of Abraham?

Raising my hand! I know! I know!

Q 1- Whosoever blesses Israel I will bless and whoever curses Israel I will curse. = Abrahamic Covenant
How does God bless you? Any explanations?

Who do you think Micah is addressing?

Q 2 - After

Q 3 - The seed of Abraham by Sarah is Isaac, a type of Jesus Christ, a miraculously born son. Born of him was Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel and all three of these men had God confirming the Abrahamic covenant to them. Jacob, in the providence of God had 12 sons who became known as the children of Israel. (Prince with God) They would become the family of God as well as the nation of God as well as the collective son of God. Twelve sons because 12 is also the number that God showcases for his Divine rule. Esau and Jacob in the womb of Rebekah as twins had conflict in the womb demonstrating the difference between the flesh and the Spirit and showing that the second birth is the birth God honors and rewards.
The seed of Abraham by Keturah is 5 nations.
Abraham is the father of many physical nations.

Isaac had only one wife. He had two sons but one son only has eternal life. That is Jacob. Esau will perish. Jacob is the second man and Esau is the first. A man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. We have a picture in these two men.

Check this out.
1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord God concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.

2 Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: thou art greatly despised.

18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the Lord hath spoken it.

Remember Abraham. Whosoever blesses you I will bless and whoever curses you I will curse.

This is a universal truth. God is a jealous God.

In Isaiah, beginning at chapter 13, God gives a heavy burden to 10 nations who have oppressed his people over the OT times. He tells what will happen when he takes vengeance on them during the "day of the LORD" judgement. God doesn't forget anything. He keeps long accounts. He begins his burden upon the nations with Babylon.

No other people but Christians who believe the words of the Bible can possibly understand that God created this world to last for eternity and it was his plan to populate it with humans. I am not guessing about that. Here is just one of the times God says that very thing. Read it.

Ps 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

If you refuse to believe that you should show somewhere where God has said something different and we can close our Bibles and consider them rather worthless and go home. But it is true because God said it.
 
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JD731

Well-Known Member
That wasn't the question, this is the question:



The question arising from this crap:



@Ascetic X and Dispensationalists like you bring strange fire into Christianity with this garbage.

Obadiah 1:9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.
10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.
11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.
12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.
13 Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity;
14 Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.

God is going to settle accounts in "the day of the LORD."

This is a prophecy, ky. A prophecy MUST come to pass or be proven as a false prophecy by a fasle prophet. God said he is taking vengence on Edom as if it were Esau. It is his nation. In this late hour of history this prophecy has not yet come to pass because the day of the LORD has not yet arrived.

The day of the LORD is when he settles scores with the hateful nations. Oba 1:15 For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

I am going to tell you, ky, when a whole family of people gets wiped out, every single one, it is going to be big news.

Obadiah 1:15 For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Revelation 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



Here is the principle after the time of grace;

Edom carried this breach out against Jacob when the Babylonian Army were rousting Israel during the days of Jeremiah and these Israelites were fleeing from them.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

My advice, do not applaud Israel now for being a wicked nation but do not be anti-semetic because of it and let God purify them. He knows what he is doing.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
My advice, do not applaud Israel now for being a wicked nation but do not be anti-semetic because of it and let God purify them. He knows what he is doing.

Criticizing the mixing of Zionism with the religion of Jessus Christ, which is what you Dispensationalists do, is not 'anti-semitic'.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Criticizing the mixing of Zionism with the religion of Jessus Christ, which is what you Dispensationalists do, is not 'anti-semitic'.
There is a book in the Bible called Lamentations. It is a book of sadness and sorrow. It is about the plight of Jerusalem and Zion during the days since God cast his people out of the land for their disobedience. God himself is sad but over time he is going to heal his great city and his great mountain. There are 153 references to Zion in the Scriptures and I am just going to give you the references of Jeremiah when Jerusalem was sacked by the Babylonians and there hasn't been a king there since.

  1. Lamentations 1:4
    The ways of Zion do mourn, because none come to the solemn feasts: all her gates are desolate: her priests sigh, her virgins are afflicted, and she is in bitterness.

  2. Lamentations 1:6
    And from the daughter of Zion all her beauty is departed: her princes are become like harts that find no pasture, and they are gone without strength before the pursuer.

  3. Lamentations 1:17
    Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort her: the Lord hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them.

  4. Lamentations 2:1
    How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!

  5. Lamentations 2:4
    He hath bent his bow like an enemy: he stood with his right hand as an adversary, and slew all that were pleasant to the eye in the tabernacle of the daughter of Zion: he poured out his fury like fire.

  6. Lamentations 2:6
    And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the Lord hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

  7. Lamentations 2:8
    The Lord hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together.

  8. Lamentations 2:10
    The elders of the daughter of Zion sit upon the ground, and keep silence: they have cast up dust upon their heads; they have girded themselves with sackcloth: the virgins of Jerusalem hang down their heads to the ground.

  9. Lamentations 2:13
    What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee?

  10. Lamentations 2:18
    Their heart cried unto the Lord, O wall of the daughter of Zion, let tears run down like a river day and night: give thyself no rest; let not the apple of thine eye cease.

  11. Lamentations 4:2
    The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!

  12. Lamentations 4:11
    The Lord hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof.
  13. Lamentations 4:22
    The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins
  14. Lamentations 5:11
    They ravished the women in Zion, and the maids in the cities of Jud
  15. Lamentations 5:18
    Because of the mountain of Zion, which is desolate, the foxes walk upon it.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Jesus Christ will be the next legitimate King of Zion to sit on the throne over Israel.

Psalm 14:7
Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Psalm 87:2
The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.

ky, you should spend some time in prayerful contemplation on the subject of Zion. The Bible is a Jewish book. It is not a book on religion and should not be treated as such. Israel is an eternal earthly family and nation and is separate from the church of Jesus Christ and have their own promises along with the other nations of the world. The church is a heavenly entity and is a resurrected and glorified body whose head is Christ. Metaphorically speaking, Israel is the restored wife of Jehovah and is portrayed as such and the church is the glorious unspotted wife of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 5:27
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
 
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