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Give Me liberty, Or Give Me Justice.

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ForumChaplain, Aug 31, 2002.

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  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Chappie,

    My only serious sentence was my second one.

    The Lord has used, at times, different people to stop me in my tracks. What I mean is that what someone has said has been used by the Holy Spirit to re-evaluate my life. Kind a like--Baalam's donkey . . .
     
    #121 Ray Berrian, Sep 22, 2002
  2. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Overall, a good effort, Chappie. [​IMG]

    1) Nations are composed of individuals. To be a respecter of a nation is to be a respecter of the individuals that comprise that nation.

    2) As the passage shows, God loved and chose the nation Israel because He loved and chose them. God chose and loved the elect salvifically because He chose and loved them salvifically.

    Ken    </font>[/QUOTE]Well Sir.
    The only way that you can arrive at that conclusion is to isolate the passage from the surrounding text. I am not willing do do that.

    Specifically, had God loved them salvifically, they would have all been saved. Scripurally this is not the case. Specifically he chose Abraham, yet chose to honour his promise to Abraham through his descendants.

    I gave you a somewhat indept evaluation of the passages, explaining not only what I believe, but giving scripture to demonstrate why i believe. Is this the only rebuttal that you have. If you care to do some serious study, let's do it. Or do we continue on this superficial finger pointing charade.

    Are you willing to demonstrate the evidences of your faith, or is that a horse of a different color.
     
    #122 ForumChaplain, Sep 22, 2002
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I was not saying that God's choosing of Israel was for salvation. I was using God's loving them because He loved them without any precondition on the Israelites part as an example of why God chooses the elect because He chose them without any precondition on the elect's part.

    Ken [​IMG]
     
    #123 KenH, Sep 22, 2002
  4. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    I was not saying that God's choosing of Israel was for salvation. I was using God's loving them because He loved them without any precondition on the Israelites part as an example of why God chooses the elect because He chose them without any precondition on the elect's part.

    Ken [​IMG]     </font>[/QUOTE]Show me by using the passages and the surrounding text to make your point. That is what you asked of me. I cannot embrace your off the cuff illustrations, they leave too many questions unanswered...
     
    #124 ForumChaplain, Sep 22, 2002
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    My views have never been said to be outside of mainstream Calvinism. I am not the standard bearer. I simply believe that the Bible teaches what people generally call Calvinism.

    I have done that numerous times. 2 Thess 2:13 specifically mentions God’s choosing people from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. That is a clear verse that demonstrate that my position in biblical. John 6, the very words of Christ himself, are directed to people, not groups, and therefore must of necessity reference personal election. Eph 1 is very clear about the election of people to salvation. My request is for you to tell us why these verses don’t mean what they say. It seems very clear. You later say You want scriptures, get your own!!! I have them. I have posted them, explained them, and dealt with the objections to them. I have shown how Scripture supports the view I hold.

    I have never, to my knowledge, used the phrase salvational election. I believe it was your post that used it. I was responding to your use of it. But there was certainly no misrepresentation. I will deal with any Scripture or theological truth that you put forth. I will run from nothing.

    No, you didn’t have to get in the Greek to figure it out. What we must do though is not omit it. You appeared to be separating the whosoever from the very thing that defines them. In Acts 13:48 we are told that belief comes only from those appointed to eternal life. While you want to focus on the whosoever, it is important not to omit words like “will” and “believes.”

    Yes, yes and no, false dichotomy, yes, yes.

    False. I have not failed to distinguish between a person and a nation. I didn’t even bring up nations. What I did bring up was the idea of respecting people. If God chooses people on the basis of something, he is respecting them. It is only when God chooses people with no distinguishing reason that he is not respecting them. Anytime a choice is made because of a reason, it is a reason of value or respect. That is the problem with your position.

    You have argued long and loud that it is unfair. Why are you now willing to leave it up to God?

    Without a doubt. In fact, it is a command.
     
    #125 Pastor Larry, Sep 23, 2002
  6. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Pastor Larry:
    I am at present in discussions with different individualsof the Calvinist persuasion. Calvinism is as varied as the number ofpeople that you talk to. If it is as scripturally clear as you say, there should be very little difference between what Calvinist believe. Calvinism professes to have Calvinist and hyper-calvinist. Which ones are intrepreting the scriptures incorrectly??

    This is your passage, perhaps you could demonstrate to me how it supports individual election....

    Does this passage standing alone or in the contest of surrounding passages prove individual election?????
    2 Thess.2:13
    But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    II Th 2:8-17
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    Unrighteousness has the power to deceive. Those that perish have embraced unrighteousness, because they would not embrace (receive) a love of truth that they might be saved. They chose a love of the pleasures of unrighteousness over the benefits of loving the truth.

    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    Because they have volitionally chosen the pleasures of unrighteousness, God will send them a strong delusion that they may believe the lie that allows them to live the lie that they have chosen without any more interference or conviction from God.

    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    God does this that all that have chosen the pleasures of unrighteousness may be justly condemned for their action. God actually turns them over to the pleasures of their unrighteousness that they may enjoy it while they can. God removes any conviction of conscience. (Reprobate mind)

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    “But we” (We being plural by definition) give thanks to God for you brethren (Brethren, plural by definition) because God hath from the beginning chosen you (You, the brethren) to be saved through sanctification (being set aside to be holy) of the spirit, and by believing the truth. There is no individual election here. Those that are chosen are chosen because of a belief in the truth.

    14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    They were called unto this sanctification and truth by the Gospel, (Nothing about a gospel and an efficacious gospel) A gospel that is sufficient unto the obtaining of the glory of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

    15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
    16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

    Stand fast, to what you have been taught, as our Lord and even the father which has loved us (Us, plural} has given us this gift through his grace. (Through Grace, not election…)

    Pastor Larry, would you please demonstrate using the surrounding passages how 2 Thess.2:13, demonstrates individual election. As a scripture standing in context it fails, IMHO, to do so. Standing alone it can be used to prove many things….

    [ September 23, 2002, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
    #126 ForumChaplain, Sep 23, 2002
  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post, Pastor Larry. [​IMG] A group is composed of individuals and individuals compose a group. What applies to the group applies to each individual in the group and what applies to each individual in the group applies to the group as a whole.

    Pretty simple when a person stops and thinks about it for a while. :D

    Ken
     
    #127 KenH, Sep 23, 2002
  8. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Excellent post, Pastor Larry. [​IMG] A group is composed of individuals and individuals compose a group. What applies to the group applies to each individual in the group and what applies to each individual in the group applies to the group as a whole.

    Pretty simple when a person stops and thinks about it for a while. :D

    Ken    </font>[/QUOTE]I am so embarassed: I stopped, I thought, but i still missed it. Perhaps, using scripture you can explain it to me...
     
    #128 ForumChaplain, Sep 23, 2002
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I wish I could, Chappie, [​IMG] but you and I are simply on different wavelengths in this forum. I see no reason for you and me to keep butting heads unprofitably for both of us.

    Ken
     
    #129 KenH, Sep 23, 2002
  10. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    I agree......
     
    #130 ForumChaplain, Sep 23, 2002
  11. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    He could have chosen the Church, called all men to become members of that Church, and those who willfully decide to be members of that Church make up His Church. This way God can still call all men (as the BIble says he does), die for all men (as the Bible says he does), and save those who accept Him (as the Bible says he does.)
     
    #131 ScottEmerson, Sep 23, 2002
  12. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    But the church only exists as a group of individuals. How can you choose the church without choosing individuals to make up the church?

    Just like God chose the nation Israel. Did he not choose the individual people who made up the nation, since he is the one who chooses where people are born and when?
     
    #132 russell55, Sep 24, 2002
  13. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    But the church only exists as a group of individuals. How can you choose the church without choosing individuals to make up the church?

    Just like God chose the nation Israel. Did he not choose the individual people who made up the nation, since he is the one who chooses where people are born and when?    </font>[/QUOTE]So, a new concept: God now elects by choosing when and where a person will be born. If God does that, then he does create and limits some men to hell. Created for hell is more like it. Such a sad concept when attributed to a just and loving God.
     
    #133 ForumChaplain, Sep 24, 2002
  14. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Hello Pastor Larry.
    I am still waiting for your evaluation of the passages that I posted my intrepretation of. Please evaluate the way that I used surrounding scripture to arrive at my conclusions.

    Interested to know if you perceive my study methods to be flawed, if so please show me where you feel that I went wrong.

    If my conclusions are in error, the rules that I use in arriving at them is the major culprit. This is why i would like others opinions on the way that I arrive at my conclusions.

    Really interested in the methods that others use to arrive at their conclusions.

    Probably make a great thread, How to properly exegete scripture.

    I at least hope that everyone can see that my exegesis is an honest attempt to understand scripture, instead of just an attempt to discredit someone elses doctrine.

    [ September 24, 2002, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
    #134 ForumChaplain, Sep 24, 2002
  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Actually, a rather old one.

    (Acts 17:26-28 NKJV) "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, {27} "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; {28} "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'

    Ken
     
    #135 KenH, Sep 24, 2002
  16. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Actually, a rather old one.

    (Acts 17:26-28 NKJV) "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, {27} "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; {28} "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'

    Ken    </font>[/QUOTE]Ken:
    Whenever you reply with scripture alone, often they appear to have very little to do with what is being discussed.

    Please allow me to explain.
    You and I have arrived at completely opposite conclusions while reading the same scripture. Therefore, I am sure that they make perfect sense to you. But because you do not explain to me how said scriptures support what you believe, i am often left fustrated and in the dark.

    Without some commentary on your part, I will not understand.....

    Any help that you offer will be greatly appreciated.....

    Muchas Gracias...
     
    #136 ForumChaplain, Sep 24, 2002
  17. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    "Just wanted everyone to see why it is so important that we stick to God's words, rather than man's words." - Chappie

    Christian regards,

    Ken [​IMG]
     
    #137 KenH, Sep 24, 2002
  18. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    "Just wanted everyone to see why it is so important that we stick to God's words, rather than man's words." - Chappie

    Christian regards,

    Ken [​IMG]     </font>[/QUOTE]We are all sticking to God's words, yet we continue to come up with differing opinions.

    Is this a "yes", I will; or a "No", I won't???
     
    #138 ForumChaplain, Sep 24, 2002
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    My time is extremely limited. Two funerals today took up the whole day. A special speaking engagement tomorrow morning will take a lot of time. I may not be able to get to much until the end of the week. Not avoiding it ... just have some other priorities ... Sorry
     
    #139 Pastor Larry, Sep 24, 2002
  20. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Continuing to abide by the standard that you have set:

    (Isaiah 8:20 NKJV) To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    Christian regards,

    Ken [​IMG]

    [ September 24, 2002, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
    #140 KenH, Sep 24, 2002
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