Healings Today

Hey, me, too. And there are other Baptists who believe that, too!


To paraphrase: "We have not because we ask not."

 

Hi Guys, I should not have lumped you three (M4H, MEE, atestring) together. I am sorry if I misstated what anyone believes about DHK and I. I was going off the premise that if it takes the Holy Spirit being received to be saved and the evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit is speaking in Tongues. I don't speak in tongues and in fact rebuke the idea, therefore I am not saved. Also, I have never been believer baptized, which I won't go into unless there is an interest, so based on that as well, for, me I thought all three of you would say I am not saved. Anyway, let me know where you really stand on someone who is in my position and we will go from there on that issue.

Carol, The verses from Mathew do say that all nations will have the Bible preached to them. When do you think people in north and south America first heard the Gospel? My point was that Matt. 28:19 was not to be filled immediately. All nations heard and are hearing in due time. Peter in Acts 2:38 did not believe the gospel was for the Gentiles and was not preaching it to him. That happenned a little later, about 9 chapters worth in the Bible. He could not of said in Chapt 2 what he did not believe until Chapt 11 or so. I hope that makes sense. I find the verses to show what I mean.

M4H, If you have placed your trust, by faith, in Jesus Christ, to forgive your Sin then you are saved. By what I have seen in all three of your posts I do believe that you are saved. In the end God judges hearts and only knows for sure who are His children.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Hey, me, too. And there are other Baptists who believe that, too!


To paraphrase: "We have not because we ask not." </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks LadyEagle. It's good to see someone who still trusts in God. Your post is very uplifting.

MEE

 

Brian, it really doesn't matter if Peter realized that this same message (gospel) was for the Gentiles at the time that he preached God's plan of salvation to the Jews, in Acts, chapter two.

In Acts 10, the same message (gospel) was preached to the Gentiles, as it was in Acts two. Read Acts 10:44-48.

44)While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

**It doesn't say anything about the "gift of tongues." They received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues. Don't confuse with this operation of the Spirit with "divers kinds of tongues" that is spoken of in Cor. 12. It's not the same thing.

45) And they (Jews) of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the GIFT of the HOLY GHOST.

46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...

Brian, as you can see, repentance, water baptism, and receiving the Holy Ghost is for the Gentiles also. There is not another plan of salvation. The Jews rejected it and the Gentiles accepted it.

I know this is a BB, and I also know that we don't believe alike....but that is no reason for some to say that what I received from God... is not of God.

If some choose not to believe the way that I see what the Apostles preached, then that is fine with me. There are no hard feelings on my part.

I came here 'invited' a few years ago. I must say that I have learned things that I never knew, as to how some believe about the doctrine of One God. It still amazes me. Sorry, I just can't believe in a Trinity that exists of three persons??

Maybe I would make a good Jew... because one could never convience me in more than One God.

Deut.6
[4] Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Oh, I forgot again, off topic, I still belive in healing today...that is "gifts of healing."

MEE

 

I believe in the gift of tongues being applicable today, however, the gift of tongues is also often misinterpreted today.

When Jesus trained His disciples during His three-and-one-half-year ministry, He limited their training to reach out to the Jews living in Israel and Samaria. However, after Jesus ascended into heaven, He desired to send His disciples to every nation, tongue, and people. Consequently, He gifted them to speak in "new tongues" or languages.

Acts 2
In Acts 2:1-13 we have recorded the fulfillment of Jesus' prediction. The disciples and other fellow believers, 120 in number, gathered together for prayer and consecration in preparation to receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

When the day of Pentecost had come, the Holy Spirit came upon every individual, and they "began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Verse 4.

The speaking in an "other tongue" did not come by man's own efforts, but it was a gift the Holy Spirit bestowed upon the followers of Christ when they were gathered together. "Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. . . . And they were all amazed and marvelled . . . because that every man heard them speak in his own language." Verses 5, 7, 6.

Notice that the gift of the Holy Spirit to speak in a foreign and known human language was bestowed upon believers--not upon unbelievers. The purpose of the gift was to give unbelievers an opportunity to hear the gospel in their own language. Consequently, the gift itself would serve as a sign to unbelievers that the message they heard was from Heaven.

The result of Jesus' followers receiving the gift to speak in a different language was the conversion of "three thousand" precious souls to Christ in one day. Verse 41.

When one considers that the purpose of "speaking in tongues" was to reach unbelievers, it was disastrous when many of the Corinthian believers were misappropriating the gift. The gift was to be a sign to unbelievers that God had a message of salvation for them personally. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22.

First, Paul counsels them to speak in order, and then let only one interpret. See 1 Corinthians 14:27. The word for "interpret" means to "translate"--as from one known language to another. Consequently, one man would speak in an intelligible foreign language and then another man would translate it into the local language.

Second, if there is no one to interpret, let the one who speaks in tongues keep silent. See 1 Corinthians 14:28. The gift of tongues was given to communicate truth. If a believer speaks in German, but there are no unbelievers who understand German, then another believer who understands German should translate the message in a language that the others can understand, otherwise, the message is aimless and unintelligible to all. Paul testified that he would rather speak five words that people could understand than ten thousand words that no one could understand. See 1 Corinthians 14:18-19.

However, some have misunderstood the words of Paul when he said, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." 1 Corinthians 13:1. The Greek conditional clause used in this passage indicates that Paul is speaking hypothetically. In other words, we know that man does not speak in the language of angels, but even if he could, it would profit him nothing if he had not the love of God in his heart.

Then in another place Paul says, "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Corinthians 14:2. The believer who speaks "in the spirit" is speaking by the Holy Spirit. What is he speaking? He "speaketh mysteries"? Does God inspire men to speak about odd and secret things? No. Believers are the "stewards of the mysteries of God." 1 Corinthians 4:1. His servants speak about the "mystery of godliness." 1 Timothy 3:16. We are to make known the mystery of God. We are to declare the truth about God that has been previously misunderstood. This truth is revealed by the power of the Holy Spirit. As Paul said, "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel." Ephesians 6:19.

But why does it say that "no man understandeth him"? The problem in Corinth was that nobody present could understand him. He spoke in an intelligible language, but there was no one present who could understand that particular language. Consequently, he was not speaking unto men. As Paul said, "So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." 1 Corinthians 14:9.

In summary, let it be understood that (1) Jesus predicted the need and the endowment of this special gift to speak in a foreign and "new tongue," so that the gospel could be preached throughout the world. (2) The very manifestation of this gift was to be a "sign" to unbelievers that the message they were hearing was from Heaven. (3) The gift of tongues is not some ecstatic and unintelligible tongue, but it is indeed a known human language. The purpose of the gift was to communicate the gospel to the world's billions who have spoken thousands of different languages and dialects. (4) There is indeed a counterfeit to the Biblical speaking in tongues. It has taken the world by storm. Satan will use this counterfeit manifestation to communicate error. He endeavors to work upon the senses and the lower nature of man, namely, man's appetite, passions, and desires. This is to keep man from settling into the truth with his higher nature, namely, man's intellect, reason, and conscience.

So often Satan has found success by playing upon the emotions of man and his senses, thereby bypassing his intellect, reason, and conscience. However, God's people must be intelligent upon that which is written in the Word of God. They must choose to do right, because it is right and because right doing is pleasing to God. They must allow their conscience to be wooed only by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4. Yet, so many are unsatisfied with the plain words of Scripture. They have a false salvational security because of this spiritual manifestation of tongues. Yet, those who shall make up the kingdom of God must live by faith. Day by day, moment by moment, they must walk with their Lord and Saviour. They must hunger and thirst for righteousness. See Matthew 5:6.

In summary, none of us are saved because we speak in tongues. Speaking in tongues is not even evidence that someone is saved. Many non-Christians and atheists speak in the same ecstatic and unintelligible tongue. Jesus warned the religious world, "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe." John 4:48. We are not to put our faith in the signs and wonders. They will increase as time draws to a close.

Claudia

 

As far as "Healings" go, I believe there will be miracles and healings in these last days, HOWEVER...


Miracle working power can come from both God and Satan. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5; Revelation 13:13,14)

Matt. 24:24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Rv:13:14: And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rv:16:14: For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rv:19:20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


The key is, do these who profess healings and miracles teach according to the Word of God? If not, then believe them not.

Isaiah 8:20:20: To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Claudia

 

Welcome to Baptist Board Claudia. You have some very valid points in your posts.
I have a question for you. You said that "the gift of tongues are applicable for today." Then you proceeded to set forth the purpose of tongues, and the manner in which they should be Scripturally should used. Do you know of any instances today where that is happening, just as you described it?
DHK

 

Sorry to hear that you're sick atestring. Though I don't believe that "the gift of healing" is operative for today, I certainly believe in a God who heals and does heal in these days. He heals through prayer, in answer to our prayers, and according to his will. We will pray that the Lord will heal you, and that you will recover from whatever sickness you might have. May God have his way in your life.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I missed something? I did not say I was sick!!!!!
IF I was sick I would not get around people that do not believe that gifts of healing are not for us today.

 

Well, IFyou were sick I would pray for you; Or would you like me to retract that statement?
DHK

 

Carol, the pouring out of the Holy Ghost, once to the Jews and once to the Gentiles, were important but exclusive events. This has been covered many times before but the reason that the gift of tongues was given, THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS THERE IS TWO KINDS OF TONGUES, is because Jews were present and were being warned. It was a fulfilling of an OT prophetic warning. If God did not give tongues when some people were saved how would the house of Isreal be warned and know that it was from God. God did what he said he would do, warned His chosen People, and you and your denomination have made a whole theology out of it. There were special times in the first days, months, years of the new "church". God was beautifully getting His new "people" started by miracles, signs, and wonders. He proved through those mighty men, who were doing the mighty works, who He was. In your example Carol, we see that the men were saved before the Baptism or you must believe that the Holy Ghost fell on the unsaved. Doesn't that clash with your or others oneness believers doctrine.

"healing gifts" - I believe two people have made this plural. It is a gift of healing. There are not different gifts of healing, there is one.

Those of you who still hold that the gift of healing is for today, give me one example of a healer now who heals all that come to them the way Jesus did and the Apostles did.


a little off topic, from my heart. Earlier someone brought up about healings today being internal and not external. I struggle with this. I believe God can and does answer prayer and heal people. But why do we never see new limbs grown, or someonf whose face is deformed in a fire, made whole again (without dozens of surgeries). People tend to get healed of cancer and things like that but those tremendous illnesses and deformities do not get healed. Also, People who are Autisic and downs, etc... never get healed of those infirmities either. Sorry if I sound down on God's power, it is just a reality I face at my job and it weighs on my heart.

In Christ, who healed my soul,
Brian

 

Brian, possibly someone else may want to respond to you. I really don't know anything more to explain to you without repeating myself.

Not mad at you...just tired.

MEE

 

Bummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmp

Hoping for a response to the last pasrt of my last post. It is really on my mind and I would like to see what others think. Thanks!!

-Brian

 

Brian,

I am so tired of that statement that in the book of Acts, the Apostles healed all the people.

First of all, look closely at the following scripture:Acts 5-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And they were healed every one. In the first place it says they were healed, not that Peter healed them.

Secondly, when did God leave man in charge of anything??

GOD is the only one that can heal;today, back then or anytime!!! Everybody knows that! At least all people who believe the scripture know it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 1-19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1 Cor 1-24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~````

God doesen't do things the way we think He should.

He does it His way.

1. God does the healing.

2. He does it WHEN HE WANTS TO even though man
is the instrument he uses.

3. Man does not, cannot heal.

4. It works the same today!!!!!

5. In scripture, it never says, Peter healed,
or Paul healed.

6. The only time it says "someone" healed, was
in the 4 gospels when it JESUS healed.

If you read this and study the scripture and ask the Holy Ghost to reveal it to you then you will see that it is true.

If you just skim it and pay no attention, then you will continue to be deceived in this area of the gospel.

Working for Jesus,

Tam,

 

You have neither answered Brian's question, or mine.
The Apostle's had the power to heal all that came to them, as evidenced by the verse that you quoted. ALL today and in the first century will be careful to give the credit to God, so there is no need to play a game of semantics here. That is a moot point. The real point is, Tam, that no one alive today, has the power of God, to perform the same type of healings today. God has not given this gift to anyone today. God does not work through any individual today in this way. Why? The gift, like tongues, has ceased.
DHK

 

Well I see that you missed the whole point!!

They did not heal. God did the healing.

That is the way the gifts work today. When God wants some one healed, they are healed.

He does the healing. Not man, not the Apostles, but God heals!!

I see that you just skimmed it, didn't think about it, and so you are still deceived. Just gave your same old stock answer.

Lets see if Brian thinks about!! Probably won't!

but I won't comment until he answers.

working for Jesus,

Tam,

 

I didn't miss the point at all. I agreed with it. God did the healing. You are playing a game of semantics. Everyone will admit that God did the healing. We have no problem with that. Answer honestly then. Does God do the healing in the same manner as He did in the New Testament Age, where all that came to the Apostles were healed?

 

Ooh-tay,
God did do the healing. God also will work/move through men also. Do you agree with that statement?
If not then what about Moses, Elisha, Elijah? Look at the different ways these OT men healed. Moses used a serpent that the Lord told him to make and to lift up in the dessert. I don't recall if he ever laid hands on someone to heal them? But was it Moses or God who healed? Elijah and Elisha gave life to a child...and the dead bones of Elisha revived that dead man. But was it Elijah, Elisha or God who gave life. This is why I will have to agree with Tam's statement that it wasn't the Apostles that healed it was the Lord working through them. I believe that God worked through men that He chose even the Apostles. Because lets face it without Him we could do nothing. Yes that includes those languages that you have learned and the few words that I have picked up learned in different countries languages. I guess it would be wonderful if all christians could all talk in tongues (some known languages) so we can converse with pople here in America and also go to forign countries and share the Gospel, or to have the gifts of healing, or to be able to interpret, but not all do. Just as Paul had stated in 1Cor.12:30. I have seen healing (spiritual and physical)and know its real. I also believe that the Lord will use doctors also. 1Cor.12:9 says "gifts" I think its plural for a reason. But there are alot that will lean more heavily on the medical doctors and not even concider the Great physician who created our bodies to heal. Yes, I belive there ought to be a balance. If some people would have gone to the doctor they would have still been alive. If some people would have waited on the Lord to heal them they might not have been maimed by a doctor. I don't know the answer why some get healed and some don't but rest assured the Lord knows and some day we will understand it better.
BTW, if you would do a search in the bible, some people were healed/ made whole by their faith or anothers faith. (ya'll blasted me the last time I said this but I was just stating what the bible said, so take it up with the guy who wrote it in the first place. )But then agian, some were lost sinners that were healed and came to be saved too. I don't think theres a formula for people to get healed the word says that God is no respector of persons. But I still believe in healing today.

DHK you asked:
#1.Does God do the healing in the same manner as He did in the New Testament Age, #2. where all that came to the Apostles were healed?
Thats like a 2 part question DHK,
#1. Yes. In my experiance I have had people pray for me and I got healed. I belive God can heal like He did in the NT age as He can today.

#2. If you read it that way where the Apostles healed everyone and belive that they did the healing...go ahead, but like you also said, "God does the healing".
I don't know about no semantics? So unless you can tell me how you mean that use smaller words for us lay people will ya?

Heres ya'll a question though....Does God heal like He did in the OT age like He did in the NT age?

Music4Him

 

BTW,
Briguy,
I don't know if anything that I said above helps or that if it might pertain to your question or not, but I know that the Lord has the answers. I for one won't try to pretend to have all the answers all I can offer is what the bible says and what I have found in the word. And through these debates that I might learn more.
God bless you though for being able to help and work with those that are in those special situations....It takes a strong person to do that type of work.


Music4Him

 

Semantics are word games music4Him, just like you are playing now. You didn't answer my question, because you couldn't give an honest answer without denying your own theology. So let me repeat the question for you.
Does God do the healing in the same manner as He did in the New Testament Age, where all that came to the Apostles were healed?

It is not a two part question. It is a simple yes or no question. No need to play word games or semantics, or anything else. Just answer the question--yes or no.
I will answer it for you. It is an obvious NO.
God does heal in the same manner as he did in the NT age where all that came to the Apostles were healed. No man alive today has that power. If they give evidence of it. Why do they call it the "gift of healing?" Because it was a gift given by God. Who has that gift today? No one. If so provide evidence that someone--anyone is able to heal everyone that will come to him. If you can't then humbly admit that the gift has passed. No more word games please.
DHK

 

There are no semantics being played here DHK, unless you are the one playing them.

Here is the answer to your question:

The reason that ALL are not healed today is because of unbelief! Just as it was in Jesus day. He didn't do many miricles at one point because of the unbelief of the people.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matt. 9-24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

They laughed at Jesus when He was going to raise someone from the dead. But He put them out and raised her anyway.

That is exactly why you never see miracles these days. It is simply because you don't believe in them. You have to have proof that they exist first!

God is not going to try to prove anything to you when you wouldn;t believe it anyway.

No matter how many times you say the gifts have ceased, that does not make it so!!

The gifts are still in effect just like they were in the book of Acts.

Working for Jesus,

Tam,

(P.S. if some of the above post looks familier, it is, I posted it somewhere else and then discovered it would answer this question too!!!)