Healings Today

Dear New In Christ,

You said: I have yet to see from one who believes the gifts of the Spirit have passed an explanation as to why the gift of healing would have passed away. I've only seen a statement that it has passed, not a reason why. I can see why some would think tongues, interpretation, and prophecy have passed, but I don't understand why the other gifts would have passed.

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That's a good question and one that no one has a satisfactory answer for. Sometimes we just have to know that God is in control no matter if we understand it or not.

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There is one scripture that I don't think has been mentioned yet and that is:
Matt.5-45 : That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

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Bad things happen to good people. That's just the way it is, whether we understand it or not.

I personally do not believe that the healing gifts are gone. They are still in effect today, and operate the same way, by the "unction or knowing" of the Holy Ghost. No man can heal anyone, only God can heal.

But still it is Gods call, and that's where the mystery comes in, NOBODY knows why some get healed and others don't.

I agree, a grieving mother does not want want a theological debate, she just wants her baby healed.

Again, there is the scripture of Romans, 8-28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

We just have to trust that God IS in control, and He knows best.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[4] Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
[5] And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
[6] And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
[7] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
[8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
[11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

4 Now there are (10) varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 There are varieties of effects, but the same (11) God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit (12) for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of (13) wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of (14) knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another (15) faith by the same Spirit, and to another (16) gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of (17) miracles, and to another (18) prophecy, and to another the (19) distinguishing of spirits, to another various (20) kinds of tongues, and to another the (21) interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, (22) distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

I included the scripture above in KJV and NASB to clarify that the Holy Spirit gives the gifts not powers the gifts once they are given. We operate in the Spirit because the Holy spirit indwells us. In that sense the Spirit of God helps us use our gifts but not in a situational enhancement.

I think the idea of “anointing” is something that we in more recent years have tried to define rather then just take what the Bible says. The idea of the Holy Spirit giving a special measure of blessing or power does not seem consistent with the fact that the Holy Spirit comes and dwells within us in full, at the time of salvation. It is not logical to think that God the Holy Spirit would come fill us only in part and would need to give us more of Himself at certain times. I have not spent a lot of time looking into what is really meant by anointing and how the original Greek used the words. I will find a couple commentaries from those who do know Greek and post again in a day or so.

M4H, Thanks for your post. I need to look at it more and see if I can over more then what I just said.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Briguy,

I think we are still not getting across what we mean by anointing.

When you are given a gift, of course it is always there, but the Holy Spirit lets you know when to use it. It's a "heads up" for lack of a better term.

Lets say you are in a group of people, and just talking to them, and suddenly you "know" that you should pray for that particular person.

Another example is : a pastor has prepared his sermon, and is in the process of delivering it in the pulpit on sunday morning when suddenly he "knows" that God wants him to add a certain something.

This is what is meant by anointing. It's not a power up, but a word from God.

I don't know if that explains it any better,but thats my best explanation I think.

Let me know if this makes sense to you at all!

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

Hi Tam,
I believe both DHK and I have answered the question NIC asked. You may disagree, which is fine, well maybe not fine, but understandable. It is as I ststed in the begining of the thread and DHK has said an authenticity issue. The miraculous gifts gave the early church the ability to show that the Gospel message was authentic, meaning really from the LIVING GOD. The miraculous "sign" gifts, to use the right term, were given to give the early church authority. When the Bible was complete, both OT and NT became that authority and so those foundational gifts ended, along with new revelation as God had revealed to us everything needed to bring us "HOME".

Anyway, that is the answer to the question in a nutshell, so we can all now say at the very least that a legitimate answer has been given, even if you don't agree with the answer.

Tam, God does heal today as always. It is His choice who is healed. God gave a "gift of healing" for a short period of time which allowed the gifted person to decide who got healed. Now that gift is long gone but the great healer, God still heals in answer to prayer, and according to His will. That is as clear as I can state mine and DHK's position.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Tam, I posted last post before I saw your last post. What you described is what I call being moved or lead by the Spirit. Anointing as I understood others to say was more of a "rush" of the Spirit, i.e. people falling at a Benny Hinn Show. I understand what you are saying.(yeaaaa) Thank you for the post and the clear explanation!!!

Your brother in Christ,
Brian

 

Buuuummmmp, waiting for response to my Tongues challange. Also, any responses to my saying all gifts operate the same and are up to us when to use, would be welcome.

Brian

 

Brian,
I seen your tongue challenge. Accually if I said I did what you asked and met the challenge you'd probley wouldn't belive me. BTW, It has been done before, however by others so what good would it do me to this under a challenge. This would be almost like in Matthew 4:1-11 when Jesus was being tempted by the devil. To me its like your challenging some one to "perform" in the gifts. (I don't know why but that just don't seen right to my inner witness?) But when the Lord leads me and I get to witness and lead a lost person to the Lord operating in the gift of tongues.....when that happens I'll not only let you know, but I belive I'd be telling alot of people. (As you noticed I used the word "when" not "if".... cause as ya'll all know theres no limit what God can do.)

Brian asked:
Also, any responses to my saying all gifts operate the same and are up to us when to use, would be welcome.


Music says:
As it says to me also that all gifts operate the same, but... it God who does the work. In 1Cor.12:6 there are many operations, but the same God who work all in all.
To me its saying that God is the one that works in the different operations....he distributes them to us, but they only work with God (v11) ~But all these worketh that one (One) and the selfsame Spirit,.........
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

BTW, (Its probley for a new thread) But do ya'll notice how some of the words like "he, him, itself" when the scripture is pertaining to God (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) they didn't capltalize the word. Why is that?

(Hugs ya'll)
Music4Him

 

As for the capitolization - don't put to much stock in that. The original greek was written in all capitals anyway.

 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The KJV translators did not normally capitalize pronouns referring to deity.
DHK

 

Briguy, and others:
You have stated:
It is as I ststed in the begining of the thread and DHK has said an authenticity issue. The miraculous gifts gave the early church the ability to show that the Gospel message was authentic, meaning really from the LIVING GOD. The miraculous "sign" gifts, to use the right term, were given to give the early church authority. When the Bible was complete, both OT and NT became that authority and so those foundational gifts ended, along with new revelation as God had revealed to us everything needed to bring us "HOME".
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Nice concepts. Many believe them.
But I guess you have never noticed. The Bible that we have does not say what you say. In fact, it says the opposite.
So, if you can find any scriptures that say what is quoted above, then post them. Please don't add your interpretation or additional words.
Do you understand that what you say sounds just like what an Apostle would say? It sounds authoritative. It sounds credible. But did God say it. What you are saying comes from extra-Biblical sources. That is fine. But do you know who originated what you are saying? Who put these words and concepts together? Do you care where these "truths" came from? Please don't say they came from the Bible, unless you can quote scripture.

Now if you can read and understand the preceding, you might begin to understand why some don't agree with you. Those who have seen the Living God, Who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, do the same work in our day as He did in the first century. I used to believe as you do. I could quote and echo others just like you do. But when I saw the authentic work of the Holy Spirit, and the holy results of the work of the Holy Spirit, I changed belief systems.

I can understand how many are "experts" in all things of the Holy Spirit and the gifts who have never once seen a valid expression of the gifts. I was once an "expert" like these. But I have seen on numerous occasions the work of the Holy Spirit, just as the Apostle Paul speaks of it in 1 Cor. 12. The Holy Spirit does these things to build the Body of Christ, and to prepare the Bride.

Having the book (Bible) is great. Having the Holy Spirit and the book (Bible) is better. He works today just as in the first century. Many didn't believe in the first century when they saw Jesus do mightly works of God, and many didn't believe when they saw the Apostles and others do mighty works of God.

So not much has changed. They had a book, and we have a book. Those who believe do the works, just as Jesus said.

 

Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Acts 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

Acts 5:15-16 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Acts 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

Acts 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Acts 19:11-12 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Absolutely. Just read the Book of Acts.

As a general rule I don't use extra-Biblical sources. I use the Bible, and that is what I have quoted to you.

Nope, I haven't found any reason yet, at least not that is Biblical.

No man has seen God at any time. Who have you seen? Jesus Christ incarnate does not walk this earth any longer, so again, who do you see?

Who are these "others." I quote to you the Bible. Is it not authoritative enough for you?

What belief system did you change? Was it one from believing in the Word from believing in experiences perhaps? Does the Word control your theology, or your emotions control what you believe?

How does one become an "expert?" By knowledge of the Word of God, or by an abundance of experiences? Do you have evidence that what you call "works of the Holy Spirit" are genuine "works of the Holy Spirit," and not some other spirit?" What are these works that you are speaking of?

Many did not believe the works of Christ, which attested to his deity, and were not saved because they believed not that Christ was the Messiah. Many did not believe the message of the Apostles in spite of the miracles that they performed (which authenticated that message during that century), and thus did not believe. Miracles do not save. They never did.
Jesus said: "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign (a miracle).
It is not the miracles; it is the message, which has nothing to do with miracles.

1Cor.13:8 teaches that those works have ceased.
Have you ever sung the simple chorus:

Jesus loves me this I know
for the Bible tells me so.

The song writer got it right.
DHK

 

DHK, That was excellent!!!! I think earlier in this thread someone quoted the verse from Eph. that speaks of the foundation set by the Apostles and Prophets. Upon Foundations things are built and without a foudation nothing can stand.

Why would Paul use foundation if the whole building "church" was the same from top to bottom? The answer is that he would not. Paul inspired by God, saw what was ahead for the church and that what he saw in his day, was the building blocks for which a huge "church" would be built. The foundation is different from the rest of the building, otherwise Paul would not have chose the words that he used.

DHK has met the scripture challange, now what?

In Christ,
Brian

btw, No one has reported back that they were able to meet my challange.

New challange: The apostles raised the dead at least a couple times, can anyone do that today? If not, what has changed?

 

DHK and Briguy,
You guys are good, and predictable.
The logic you give was old when I used to echo it in the late 1960s.
Do you want a challenge?
Try to find the person who first said what you are echoing.
Now, I won't blame you if you fall back on the old reasoning that "I just read the Bible". What you and others who trot out this logic do is follow someone's interpretation. You just don't have any idea of who it is that you are echoing. And it's too much work to try and find out.

Yes, experience is a part of every religion, whether it be Christianity or not. Our belief systems cause us to act.

Read John 14:9-14.
Some Christians believe that Jesus spoke accurately when He said:
JN 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Read the whole book of John if you want the entire context. Or better yet, read the entire Bible to get a really good context. You will find that when followers of the Living God believe that He will act on their behalf, they act accordingly. Beliefs cause action.

Those who believe that having a book (Bible) is enough will act accordingly. Those who believe that having a book (Bible) and desiring to do the work that the Holy Spirit gives them to do will also act accordingly.

The testimonies (that you will consider invalid) that are coming out of South America, Africa, and Asia give wonderful proof to a LIVING GOD Who acts today just as in the first century. I am very thankful that I have been allowed to see it, and also participate in the work of the Holy Spirit. Evangelism is great! Seeing people saved is incredible. And seeing people healed in the Name of Jesus is also wonderful!

I know you won't be swayed by these words. But if you ask the Holy Spirit to show you whether or not His work is still for today, you might get surprised.

 

This is the best post that I've heard in a long time. It's hard to belive that someone still believes in the things of God and that they weren't left behind somewhere in time.

MEE

 

It was so good indeed to read Brian's letter, with which I would whole heartedly agree. We now have the full written Word of God preserved for us.
Having been ill so many years, and in the early years seeking healing, and being told that I did not have enough faith, or sin in my life, I was very distressed about it, until the Lord graciously showed me His Sovereignty and I only wanted His will to be done. Then I had peace. I was NOT healed, nor asked for it, but only strength and grace for each day. I have just got worse, but accept that it must be God's will for me, because all that matters is the spiritual life, for we shall all die, unless the Lord comes first.
Yours, By His grace, Rose

 

Thank you, Brian, once again for your post today. I am encouraged by what you say, as I believe there was only ONE foundation for the church, and a building or house only has ONE foundation. Yours, in Christ, Rose

 

The Pentecostals and Charismatics are echoing the beliefs of others. For 1900 years the modern tongues movement was unheard of. We have no person to follow after. Do your own research. Here is a brief history given by John MacArthur:

Charismatic Movement
DHK

 

The Pentecostals and Charismatics are echoing the beliefs of others. For 1900 years the modern tongues movement was unheard of.

DHK [/QUOTE]

Not so DHK! For anyone that is interested, try this link. The baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in other tongues, never ceased, as some would have you to believe. Also, tongues will not cease until the end of the gentile dispensation. In other words, when the Lord returns for His Bride!

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/New-Ch11.htm

Chapter 11 - The Witness in Church History:

MEE

 

The Pentecostals and Charismatics are echoing the beliefs of others. For 1900 years the modern tongues movement was unheard of.

DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Not so DHK! For anyone that is interested, try this link. The baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in other tongues, never ceased, as some would have you to believe. Also, tongues will not cease until the end of the gentile dispensation. In other words, when the Lord returns for His Bride!

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/New-Ch11.htm
Chapter 11 - The Witness in Church History:
MEE [/QUOTE]
Your "witness in church history" isn't much of a witness for the charismatic movement or for tongues whatsoever. It does not provide any evidence at all. Your problem lies with definitions. The link that you provided speaks of "the filling of the Holy Spirit," the "baptism of the Holy Spirit." Did it ever occur to you that we believe in those doctrines too? What happened in the 1900's is that you folk decided to attach different meanings to these phrases, change or alter their meanings, and make them mean something other than what the Bible teaches. Now you go back to the early church fathers, and when you read "baptism of the Holy Spirit" or "filled with the Spirit," you automatically think of the modern day heresy of tongues. It ain't so MEE. You can't change the meaning of the words and then put those words into the church fathers writings to make them mean something other than they intended.
Filling of the Holy Spirit we all believe. It is commanded of us in Eph.5:18,

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

You can't interpolate from that verse to speaking in tongues. It has nothing to do with tongues. Yet that is what you seem to be inferring from your link that you posted; for the only references that they gave were references to being filled with the Spirit, baptized with the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit (in general), tongues (in relation to heretical groups, or in relation to past events).
Your link provided no historical evidence whatsoever that anyone spoke in tongues during the past 1900 years.
DHK

 

You said, "For 1900 years the modern tongues movement was unheard of." DHK, better take another look!

If you choose to read the research, you will see that it shows that 'speaking in tongues' existed from the Day of Pentecost until now, as well as the 'gifts of the Spirit.' Guess what?...and they will until He returns.

MEE