Originally posted by qwerty:
Briguy, and others:
You have stated:
It is as I ststed in the begining of the thread and DHK has said an authenticity issue. The miraculous gifts gave the early church the ability to show that the Gospel message was authentic, meaning really from the LIVING GOD. The miraculous "sign" gifts, to use the right term, were given to give the early church authority. When the Bible was complete, both OT and NT became that authority and so those foundational gifts ended, along with new revelation as God had revealed to us everything needed to bring us "HOME".
______________________________________________
Nice concepts. Many believe them.
But I guess you have never noticed. The Bible that we have does not say what you say. In fact, it says the opposite.
So, if you can find any scriptures that say what is quoted above, then post them. Please don't add your interpretation or additional words.
Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
Acts 5:15-16 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Acts 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
Acts 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Acts 19:11-12 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
Do you understand that what you say sounds just like what an Apostle would say? It sounds authoritative. It sounds credible. But did God say it.
Absolutely. Just read the Book of Acts.
What you are saying comes from extra-Biblical sources. That is fine. But do you know who originated what you are saying? Who put these words and concepts together? Do you care where these "truths" came from? Please don't say they came from the Bible, unless you can quote scripture.
As a general rule I don't use extra-Biblical sources. I use the Bible, and that is what I have quoted to you.
Now if you can read and understand the preceding, you might begin to understand why some don't agree with you.
Nope, I haven't found any reason yet, at least not that is Biblical.
Those who have seen the Living God, Who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, do the same work in our day as He did in the first century.
No man has seen God at any time. Who have you seen? Jesus Christ incarnate does not walk this earth any longer, so again, who do you see?
I used to believe as you do. I could quote and echo others just like you do.
Who are these "others." I quote to you the Bible. Is it not authoritative enough for you?
But when I saw the authentic work of the Holy Spirit, and the holy results of the work of the Holy Spirit, I changed belief systems.
What belief system did you change? Was it one from believing in the Word from believing in experiences perhaps? Does the Word control your theology, or your emotions control what you believe?
I can understand how many are "experts" in all things of the Holy Spirit and the gifts who have never once seen a valid expression of the gifts. I was once an "expert" like these. But I have seen on numerous occasions the work of the Holy Spirit, just as the Apostle Paul speaks of it in 1 Cor. 12. The Holy Spirit does these things to build the Body of Christ, and to prepare the Bride.
How does one become an "expert?" By knowledge of the Word of God, or by an abundance of experiences? Do you have evidence that what you call "works of the Holy Spirit" are genuine "works of the Holy Spirit," and not some other spirit?" What are these works that you are speaking of?
Having the book (Bible) is great. Having the Holy Spirit and the book (Bible) is better. He works today just as in the first century. Many didn't believe in the first century when they saw Jesus do mightly works of God, and many didn't believe when they saw the Apostles and others do mighty works of God.
Many did not believe the works of Christ, which attested to his deity, and were not saved because they believed not that Christ was the Messiah. Many did not believe the message of the Apostles in spite of the miracles that they performed (which authenticated that message during that century), and thus did not believe. Miracles do not save. They never did.
Jesus said: "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign (a miracle).
It is not the miracles; it is the message, which has nothing to do with miracles.
So not much has changed. They had a book, and we have a book. Those who believe do the works, just as Jesus said.
1Cor.13:8 teaches that those works have ceased.
Have you ever sung the simple chorus:
Jesus loves me this I know
for the Bible tells me so.
The song writer got it right.
DHK
