Fruits of Calvanism

God doesn't make circular statements. If one of God's "elect" dies in unbelief, they would not be "elect".</font>[/QUOTE]Of course. That's why the day of the Lord has not come yet. That's what I said.

Prove it.

It is exactly what the Bible says.

 

Many professing Christians really have no view of election. They have not given it enough thought and study to even have any opinion about it. Still many others have erroneous views. We shall notice some of them.

1. The view that men are elected when they believe.

This view is easily refuted for it is contrary to both common sense and Scripture. Election is to salvation, and therefore, must precede salvation. It is nonsense to talk about electing a man to something he already has. The man has salvation when he believes and so...election at that point would not be necessary. ELECTION TOOK PLACE IN ETERNITY; SALVATION TAKES PLACE WHEN THE SINNER BELIEVES.

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2. The view that election pertains only to the Jews.

This view robs Gentiles of the comfort of Rom 8:28-39.

Rom 8:28-29 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Also... Paul, who was an apostle to the Gentiles, says that he endured all things for the elect's sakes that they might obtain salvation.

2 Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

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3. The view that election took place in eternity, but that it was in view of foreseen repentance and faith.

According to this view, God, in eternity, looked down through the ages and saw who would repent and believe and those who He foresaw would repent and believe were elected to salvation. This view is correct in only one point, namely, that election took place in eternity. It is wrong in that it makes the ground of election to be something in the sinner rather than something in God.

Read Eph 1:4-6 where election and predestination are said to be "According to the good pleasure of His will" and "To the praise of the glory of His grace".

Eph 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

This view thought the popular one with the majority of Baptists today, is open to many objections.

1st.... It denies what the Bible says about man's condition by nature. The Bible does not describe the natural man as having faith.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Both repentance and faith are gifts of God, and God did not see these graces in any sinner apart from His purpose to give them. "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins", Acts 5:13 "When they heard these things they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, `Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life'", Acts 11:18. "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth" 2Ti 2:25.

Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Cor 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Election was not because of foreseen faith, but because of foreseen unbelief. It is not the election of God's faithful ones, but the faith of God's elect, if we are to keep Scriptural words

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2nd.... It makes the human race differ by nature, whereas, the Bible says, we are all by nature the children of wrath and all clay of the same lump.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Men are made to differ in the new birth.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

3rd..... It perverts the Scriptural meaning of the word "foreknowledge".

The word as used in the Bible means more than foreknowledge about persons, it is the foreknowledge of persons. In Rom 8:29,30, the foreknown are predestined to the image of Christ, and are called, justified and glorified. In 1Pe 1:2, the word for "foreknowledge" is the same as "foreordain" in the twentieth verse of the same chapter, where the meaning cannot be "foreknowledge" about Christ. God's foreknowledge about persons is without limitations; whereas, His foreknowledge of persons is limited to those who are actually saved and glorified.

4th.... It is open to the strongest objection that can be made against the Bible view.

It is often asked, "If certain men are elected and saved, then what is the use to preach to those who are not elected?" With equal propriety we might ask, "If God knows who is going to repent and believe, then why preach to those who according to His foreknowledge, will not repent and believe?" Will some repent and believe whom He foreknew would not repent and believe? If so, He foreknew a lie.

Right here is the weakness of much of modern missions. It is based upon sympathy for the lost rather than obedience to God's command. The inspiration of missions is made to rest upon the practical results of missionary endeavour rather than upon the delight of doing God's will. It is the principle of doing a thing because the results are satisfactory to us.


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If we are faithful, God is as pleased with our efforts as when there are no results.

2 Cor 2:15-16 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

The elect prior to their conversion are known only to God. We are to preach the gospel to every creature because He has commanded it. He will take care of the results.


Compare with:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

1 Cor 3:5-6 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

John 6:37-45 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets,

And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Elect means to choose. There need only be one that chooses and at that point the chooseing is over. So..Who is it that chooses?

 

There's not a dime worth of difference between the reasons Jews gave for withholding the gospel from the Gentiles and the reasons you give to withhold salvation from certains sinners.

Actually, Calvins doctrine is closer to the doctrine of the "Muslims/Islam God" than the "Christian God".

The Muslim/Islam/calvin doctrine demands the destruction of some people,

The doctrine of the Christian God doesn't demand the destruction of anyone, but rather the "Redeemption" of "Everyone".

That's the differences between the "God that is love" and the one that is not.

 

Lu 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

Its really very simple..

WHO DOES THE ELECTING? If you can anwser this, then you have it.

Calvinist say God. What do you say?

Who chooses the persons to be saved?

If men are chosen to salvation, as the Scriptures affirm, who does the choosing? There must be a selection or universalism. The language of Scripture seems peculiarly definite in reply to this question. Mark 13:20 speaks of the ELECT, whom He ELECTED, rendered .... "The elect's sake whom He hath chosen". The word election is associated with God not with man. God is the CHOOSER, His people are the CHOSEN, and grace is the source.

The theology, that God votes for us, the Devil votes against us, and that we cast the deciding ballot is entirely outside the pale of Scripture teaching, and is almost too ridiculous to notice. Wild off the wall statements such as you make proves nothing other than a anger toward God. Election is in the Bible. Election BY GOD must be, other wise none would be saved. He has come as the LIGHT to the world, and has said...Whosoever will may come...and man said..no thanks. So we have election.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

In Christ...James

 

This is yet another poor understanding of Gods love and mercy

IT IS OBJECTED THAT CALVIINIST VIEW OF ELECTION LIMITS GOD'S MERCY.....DOES IT?

Right here we criticize YOUR VIEW, for he who makes this objection limits both God's mercy and power. You claim that God's mercy is limited to the believer, ...I agree;

but YOU deny that God can cause a man to believe without doing violence to the man's will, and thus he limits God's power.

We believe that God is able to give a man a sound mind (2 Tim 1:7) and make him willing in the day of His power. (Ps. 110:2)

At this point we must face two self-evident propositions.

1st..., if God is trying to save every member of Adam's fallen race, and does not succeed, then His power is limited and He is not the Lord God Almighty.

2nd... if He is not trying to save every member of the fallen face, then His mercy is limited.

We must of necessity limit His mercy or His power, or go over boots and baggage to the Universalist's position. But before we do that, let us go "to the law and to the testimony", which says,

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion...Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom He will He hardeneth" (Rom 9:15-18). It would seem that it is NOT I or any other Calvinist that limits Gods mercy, but rather He gives it to whomever He wants

God's mercy is not limited by the natural condition of the sinner. All sinners are dead until God makes them alive. He is able to take away the heart of stone. No man is too great a sinner to be saved. We can pray for the salvation of the chief of sinners with the assurance that God can save them if He will.

"The King's heart is in the hands of the Lord as the river of water; He turneth it whithersoever He will" (Pr 21:1).

Jeremiah says..that there is nothing too hard for God. We can pray for the salvation of our loved ones with the feeling of the leper, when he said, "Lord, if thou wilt thou canst make me clean"(Matt 8:2).

 

Who is the "us" in that verse? When Paul was writing that it was to believers, was it not?




If the US in that verse is not US, the sinners, then Jesus didn't die for "US".

Want to explain how all are sinner and Jesus's death for sins of the whole world "MIGHT NOT" covere some sins???

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

And if the free gift is to "ALL MEN",..."WHY".. they "Might be or might not be saved"???

Ya see that "might be" puts another "condition" onto the plan of salvation, "personal faith", In Jesus, then you "Can be" saved. </font>[/QUOTE]My point (that you missed) was that the "us" in that verse was BELIEVERS!!!!! While believers (who happened to have been elect) were still sinners, Christ died for those believers (who happened to have been elect).

This verse in no way proves that Jesus died for all people without distinction, unless it was written to all people without distinction. It was written to believers in Rome. Therefore, the "us" is believers. Another proof-text for Limited Atonement.

 

Do you see what you are saying? Jesus died to do something specific - pay the wages for someone's sins. But Jesus' death was a failure because those sins did not get paid for. Is this how the Bible presents the atonement? Or is this just a man-made theology devised to preserve the sovereign free-will of man?

 

This is the most damming statement I have read on this BB. I know webdog well enough, to know that he will NEVER agree with this statement. Surely this statement if believed, is another gospel.

The fact is, not all are saved. You said.."redeemption of everone"
The fact is, there is a hell, and the lost will go there. You said.."Christian God doesn't demand the destruction of anyone"

Gods holiness DEMANDS payment for sins and that payment is DEATH.

You need to study Revelations...CHRIST DOES JUDGE

 

I'm sort of shocked by this statement as well. But if I put my Arminian glasses on, what I can see is that you mean the "possible redemption" of everyone. That is your meaning of the word redemption, isn't it?

 

What is death, seperation from God! Everyone dies physically. So the ones who die in their sin are what? Seperated from God. yep yet they live eternally in hell. I know I am off track a littel here but we are back to the term spiritual death. Which is not unable, but seperation.

Sorry to butt in...continue on.

 

Hi tim...

Below find what I feel is a must read for all. This is only the 1st chapter of a good book.."The Death of Death in the Death of Christ"

THE DEATH OF DEATH IN THE DEATH OF CHRIST
A TREATISE OF THE REDEMPTION AND RECONCILIATION THAT IS IN THE BLOOD 0F
CHRIST, WITH THE MERIT THEREOF, AND SATISFACTION WROUGHT THEREBY.

John Owen
BOOK I
CHAPTER I

In general of the end of the death of Christ, as it is in the Scripture proposed. By the end of the death of Christ, we mean in general, both,--first, that which his Father and himself intended in it; and, secondly, that which was effectually fulfilled and accomplished by it. Concerning either we may take a
brief view of the expressions used by the Holy Ghost:--
I. For the first. Will you know the end wherefore, and the intention wherewith, Christ came into the
world? Let us ask himself (who knew his own mind, as also all the secrets of his Father's bosom), and
he will tell us that the "Son of man came to save that which was lost," Matt. 18:11,--to recover and
save poor lost sinners; that was his intent and design, as is again asserted, Luke 19:10. Ask also his
apostles, who know his mind, and they will tell you the same. So Paul, I Tim. 1:15, "This is a faithful
saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." Now, if
you will ask who these sinners are towards whom he hath this gracious intent and purpose, himself
tells you, Matt. 20:28, that he came to "give his life a ransom for many;" in other places called us,
believers, distinguished from the world: for be "gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us
from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father," Gal. 1:4. That was the will
and intention of God, that he should give himself for us, that we might be saved, being separated from
the world. They are his church: Eph. 5:25-27, "He loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he
might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to
himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy
and without blemish:" which last words express also the very aim and end of Christ in giving himself
for any, even that they may be made fit for God, and brought nigh unto him;--the like whereof is also
asserted, Tit 2:14, "He gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto
himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Thus clear, then, and apparent, is the intention and
design of Christ and his Father in this great work, even what it was, and towards whom,-- namely, to
save us, to deliver us from the evil world, to purge and wash us, to make us holy, zealous, fruitful in
good works, to render us acceptable, and to bring us unto God; for through him "we have access into
the grace wherein we stand Rom. 5:2.
II. The effect, also, and actual product of the work itself, or what is accomplished and fulfilled by the
death, blood-shedding, or oblation of Jesus Christ, is no less clearly manifested, but is as fully, and
very often more distinctly, expressed;--as, first, Reconciliation with God, by removing and slaying the
enmity that was between him and us; for "when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the
death of his Son," Rom. 5:10. "God was in him reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their
trespasses unto them," 2 Cor. 5:19; yea, he hath "reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ," verse 18.
And if you would know how this reconstruction was effected, the apostle will tell you that "he
abolished in his flesh the enmity, the law of commandments consisting in ordinances; for to make in
himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both unto God in one
body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby," Eph. 2:l5, 16: so that "he is our peace," verse l4.
Secondly, Justification, by taking away the guilt of sins, procuring remission and pardon of them,
redeeming us from their power, with the curse and wrath due unto us for them; for "by his own blood
he entered into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" Heb. 9:12. "He redeemed
us from the curse, being made a curse for us," Gal. 3:13; "his own self bearing our sins in his own
body on the tree," 1 Pet. 2:24. We have "all sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" but are
"justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God hath set forth
to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins"
Rom. 3:23-25: for "in him we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins," Col.
1:14. Thirdly, Sanctification, by the purging away of the uncleanness and pollution of our sins,
renewing in us the image of God, and supplying us with the graces of the Spirit of holiness: for "the
blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself to God, purgeth our consciences from
dead works that we may serve the living God," Heb. 9:14; yea, "the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth
us from all sin," I John 1:7. "By himself he purged our sins," Heb. 1:3. To "sanctify the people with
his own blood, he suffered without the gate," chap. 13:12. "He gave himself for the church to sanctify
and cleanse it, that it should be holy and without blemish," Eph.5:25-27. Peculiarly amongst the
graces of the Spirit, "it is given to us," in-behalf-of Christ "for Christ's sake, to believe on him," Phil
1:29; God "blessing us in him with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places," Eph. 1:3. Fourthly,
Adoption, with that evangelical liberty and all those glorious privileges which appertain to the sons of
God; for "God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were
under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons," Gal 4:4, 5. Fifthly, Neither do the effects
of the death of Christ rest here; they leave us not until we are settled in heaven, in glory and
immortality for ever. Our inheritance is a "purchased possession," Eph 1:14: "And for this cause he
is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions
that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal
inheritance," Heb. 9:15. The sum of all is,--The death and blood-shedding of Jesus Christ hath
wrought, and doth effectually procure, for all those that are concerned in it, eternal redemption,
consisting in grace here and glory hereafter.
III. Thus full, clear, and evident are the expressions in the Scripture concerning the ends and effects
of the death of Christ, that a man would think every one might run and read. But we must stay:
among all things in Christian religion, there is scarce any thing more questioned than this, which
seems to be a most fundamental principle. A spreading persuasion there is of a general ransom to be
paid by Christ for all; that he died to redeem all and every one,--not only for many, his church, the
elect of God, but for every one also of the posterity of Adam. Now, the masters of this opinion do see
full well and easily, that if that be the end of the death of Christ which we have from the Scripture
asserted, if those before recounted be the immediate fruits and products thereof, then one of these two
things will necessarily follow:--that either, first, God and Christ failed of their end proposed, and did
not accomplish that which they intended, the death of Christ being not a fitly-proportioned means for
the attaining of that end (for any cause of failing cannot be assigned); which to assert seems to us
blasphemously injurious to the wisdom, power, and perfection of God, as likewise derogatory to the
worth and value of the death of Christ;--or else, that all men, all the posterity of Adam, must be
saved, purged, sanctified, and glorified; which surely they will not maintain, at least the Scripture and
the woeful experience of millions will not allow. Wherefore, to cast a tolerable color upon their
persuasion, they must and do deny that God or his Son had any such absolute aim or end in the death
or blood-shedding of Jesus Christ, or that any such thing was immediately procured and purchased
by it, as we before recounted; but that God intended nothing, neither was any thing effected by
Christ,--that no benefit ariseth to any immediately by his death but what is common to all and every
soul, though never so cursedly unbelieving here and eternally damned hereafter, until an act of some,
not procured for them by Christ, (for if it were, why have they it not all alike?) to wit, faith, do
distinguish them from others. Now, this seeming to me to enervate the virtue, value, fruits and effects
of the satisfaction and death of Christ,--serving, besides,for a basis and foundation to a dangerous,
uncomfortable, erroneous persuasion-I shall, by the Lord's assistance, declare what the Scripture
holds out in both these things, both that assertion which is intended to be proved, and that which is
brought for the proof thereof; desiring the Lord by his Spirit to lead us into all truth, to give us

 

Do you see what you are saying? Jesus died to do something specific - pay the wages for someone's sins. But Jesus' death was a failure because those sins did not get paid for. Is this how the Bible presents the atonement? Or is this just a man-made theology devised to preserve the sovereign free-will of man? </font>[/QUOTE]No, you're looking at it "Backwards" again, God loved Everyone even while they were still sinners, withour respect of persons, and Jesus died for all sin so all "MIGHT BE" saved, "IF", they believe in Jesus.

God did not condemn for us for being sinners, Jesus was send, not to condemn, but to redeem, and made it "possible" (might be) for as many as were made sinners to be saved, "IF" they believe.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

This "Blanket coverage" of salvation covers all sins, the whole world, Jesus wasn't send to condemn, but to save, condemnation is because coverages is available to all but all will not believe.

This is where Calvin get "off track",

Belief/unbelief, is left up to the individual, God calls, but he doesn't force the individual either way to believe or not, that's why many are called, few chosen, and it's the deciding factor in whom God will/won't saved,

God's choice to save/condemn is based on our belief/unbelief in Jesus.


"UNBELIEF" is the condemning charge in Judgment, not predestination, not sins, since Jesus died for all sins, the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved, except for their unbelief.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

When you get out of calvins Backward doctrine, you'll see that people are actually condemned for "Rejecting Salvation from sin" rather than God predestining them to remain sinners.

1. God loved all sinners
2. Jesus didn't come to condemn but to save
3. Died for sins of whole world
4. whole world might be saved
5. not willing any should perish


As Judge, God can't offer one man a pardon for his sins and withhold the same offer from the next man, and call it "Justice", the law demands "equal" treatment, without respect of persons, if Justice is to be served.

That's why "lady law" wears the "blindfold".

Pr 24:23 These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment.

Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Calvins doctrine actually denies there's Justice with God, but if you're backwards, you're in the dark.

 

God doesn't make circular statements. If one of God's "elect" dies in unbelief, they would not be "elect".</font>[/QUOTE]Of course. That's why the day of the Lord has not come yet. That's what I said.

Prove it.

It is exactly what the Bible says. </font>[/QUOTE]I get more confused reading your posts than anyone else.

First, one of God's elect will never perish. You did NOT say that, but you stated not all of the elect are believers already, and if they die IN UNBELIEF, they will perish. You answered your own "prove it" right there! If you believe, you will be saved, if you don't you will perish. The "elect" believe, the "non elect" don't, and refutes the calvinists' interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9.

 

James, answer me this. If I wanted to elect you President of the United States, what would be required of you...or aren't there any requirements to be President?

Unconditional election is an oxymoron. There are ALWAYS requirements attached to ANY election...unless you are a calvinist.

 

webdog, you said “I never claimed it (God hates) wasn't. (biblical)

Really? What did you mean by saying:

If you take Ps. 5:5 as God hates (opposite or absence of love) all workers of iniquity, can you tell me who besides Christ this would not apply to?

This is not biblical. Christ says that if we hate, we have committed murder in our hearts. Are you calling God a murderer? People don't go to Hell because God hates them,

A "perfect hate"? Talk about word games!
You really believe God would command us to do something righteous that He Himself would not do?

I stated "that goes along with His nature" which does not include sin. Rape, murder, lying, and HATE are sins. Of course we can sin more than God, as God does not sin.

Ps. 5:5 has always been used in the context that God witholds love from "all workers of iniquity".

Does this mean that God denies the salvation of those who commit iniquity.?”

?? AND…. You close by saying “Don't tell me God hates humans!”

So which is it? If you were not objecting to the idea that God hates, what is the problem? Will you submit your mind and soul to the Scriptures, the whole counsel of God, or just the parts that fit into your preconceived notions of what God MUST be like?

The Bible clearly says that God hates sinners, workers of iniquity who persist in their sins against Him... its biblical and you have to deal with it…. some people think they have defend God or something just because He hates sin and the sinners who commit the sins, He hates them enough to send to Hell for an eternity of suffering for rejecting His Son...

its just weird to me that people think they have to rise up to defend God just because of this issue, and I think this knee-jerk reaction is just a symptom of the deeper issue of how people view God today, as the "old man upstairs"…. that God is kinda like a kindly old Santa Claus or something... it seems the greater picture of God's awesome holiness as displayed in Isaiah 6 is lost to today's world, a world obsessively concerned with "not being offensive or judgmental"... that God is a great God, an awesome God, He is utterly and completely holy and while He is incomprehensively loving towards His people, He will by no means clear the guilty, and His anger, indeed His hatred, will burn against His enemies for all eternity...

Nah 1:2-6 ESV The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD is avenging and wrathful; the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. (3) The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. (4) He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers; Bashan and Carmel wither; the bloom of Lebanon withers. (5) The mountains quake before him; the hills melt; the earth heaves before him, the world and all who dwell in it. (6) Who can stand before his indignation? Who can endure the heat of his anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken into pieces by him."


BTW, rejecting God’s Son, rejecting God’s salvation, is the same thing as hating God. God makes it clear, if you are His enemy, and anyone who rejects the Son is automatically His enemy, because rejecting the Son is the same as rejecting the Father, then the Bible describes such people as hating Him.

Mat 6:24 ESV "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”

Joh 7:7 ESV The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.

Joh 3:18 ESV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Rom 1:18 ESV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Heb 10:29 ESV How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

Pro 1:24-30 ESV Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded, (25) because you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof, (26) I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you, (27) when terror strikes you like a storm and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you. (28) Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently but will not find me. (29) Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD, (30) would have none of my counsel and despised all my reproof,”

So evidently we are commanded to love our enemies while God hates His? Or has God changed? Or is it the case that God can love with a perfect love, and hate with a perfect hatred, something we fallen creatures cannot do?

Blessings,
Ken

 

Election…Was it on the ground of something good in the sinner?

Then nobody would have been elected for there is none good. Holiness is not the cause but the effect of election. We are chosen that we should be holy not because we are holy (Eph 1:4). Nor....as we have already seen, is election in view of foreseen repentance and faith.

To say that God chose men to salvation because He foresaw that they would repent and believe and be saved is to attribute foolishness to the infinitely wise God. It is as if the president should issue a decree that the sun must rise tomorrow because he foresees that it will rise

…or as if a sculptor should choose a certain piece of marble because he foresaw that it would make itself into the image he wanted.

 

You didn't answer my question.

 

No...unless you are GOD!!

Romans 9

I (God) will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.

It's His Choice

 

BTW webdog, you never answered my question; does God love those in hell or those who will one day be in hell?

Read ALL of John Owens' book The Death of Death.... and watch your Arminian\Universalistic notions of salvation be biblically, soundly and conclusively dealt with.

JI Packer's Introduction here:
http://www.solochristo.com/theology/Salvation/packerintro.htm

The complete book here:
http://www.mbrem.com/calvinism/Death_Of_Death/owen.htm

or dnload the pdf here:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/owen/deathofdeath.pdf

blessings,
Ken