Why the vitriol?

johnp;
Let me get this right now "he was a thief and maybe a murder and was put to death for it, also sid he deserved death, but was already saved". Sorry john, I just don't buy that.

 

You mean you were not once a predestinarian? You lied?

Well, I am shocked that anyone would stoop so low in order to score points against another.

Seriously, if someone writes about what they once believed and another replies by writing about what he imagines he might have believed had he believed something different that what he actually once believed, how can he expect to be taken seriously?

 

Hello Bob.

It seems perculiar to imagine a man preaching Christ crucified before he was saved.
We are all thiefs we try to steal God's glory.
1 Cor 1:30 It is because of your choice...
1 Cor 1:30 It is because of Him...

john.

 

Boy, I can sense the spiritual pride just dripping from this post. As if you, who don't claim to be either a Calvinist or an Arminian are the only one who really cares what the Bible says as opposed to us Calvinists who always have to check the Institutes in order to get our next talking point.

Please get it into your head that most of us are Calvinists because we read the Bible and that is the word used to describe someone who believes in unmerited election. It has nothing to do with what Calvin or Arminius said, especially to us Baptists.

 

Hello JackRUS.

If your conscience bothers you you must stop. It is however far from a waste of time to build up the Church. We should continue to talk and listen and grow. All these words are having an effect, what we learn here is passed onto others, in particular my Church. Jesus will save His people from their sins. Satan is a loser.

What do you think the internet is? And you don't get stoned.

It's life and death. Faith and works is life or death, it's not counting angels.

john.

 

Its good to hear that you are one of "us Calvinists." Myself, I am a Christian. One of the many beliefs of a Christian is unmerited election, which is not an original idea of Calvin. Actually, the best place to think of Calvin is the cartoon strip. (with Hobbs). And as far as what matters to "us Baptists", it is my guess I have been one since before you were born.

 

He said as long as I am with you I am the Comforter but I go away and I will pray the Father and He will send you another Comforter. Many many Scripture before He died He said thy faith hath made thee whole or, thy faith hath saved thee so that don't add up either johnp, sorry and He did testify before Christ died I am sure you will admit this won't you?

your own words

 

Saturneptune, I often agree with what you have said in your posts. I agree with alot you say here as well. I call myself a Calvinist because it is the label that has been given to one who believes in TULIP, as described by the Synod of Dort. I did not select this name.

If I only went around saying "I'm a Christian," that might sound very pious, but it doesn't tell diddly about what I believe. This is why, in church history, we have creeds and doctrinal statements. I call myself a Baptist because I hold to the beliefs of the historic Baptist tradition, which I see to be based on the Bible.

But there are many Christians who do not believe in unmerited election. Many on this board believe the "foreseen faith" view of election. That is far from unmerited election. There are also many people (not on this board) who are Christians that hold to infant baptism. We (and they) call themselves Presbyterian.

We may not like the names and wish we could all just call ourselves Christians, but the only way we would know what that term means that we believe is to go back to being Roman Catholic and not having the Bible in the vernacular. I choose, rather, to have to call myself a Calvinist in addition to calling myself a Baptist in addition to calling myself a Christian.

 

For what it's worth, rsr, I got it and thought you did a good job.

 

RSR ,is there "another side" to the truth ?

And why would you not want to state your own beliefs on the board ? Are you trying to stay above the fray or something ? Why wouldn't it be a good idea to spell-out what one believes ? In this case the " one " being you .

 

Hello Bob.

God's grace has saved me Bob, through the faith He gave me. It is my faith, my faith is a work and was worked in me by God. It is because of Him that I am in Christ Jesus, who has become for me Wisdom from God...

The thief spoke as much as he knew at least. He claimed the innocence of Jesus and turned to Him in hope, a thing impossible (Luke 18:26-27) with men as the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7. And since it cannot it will not. The other man was doing what comes naturally.

What do you think was happening with the thieves?

john.

 

Bob, I don't think that John is saying that the thief was saved before he got hung on the cross. I think that he is saying that by the time it was not the thief's statement (words) that saved him. By the time he made that statement, he was already saved.

 

He could have been saved at any time from hearing the message to dying Calvi. We can speculate when but we do not need to speculate about the if. When he spoke up for Christ he was already saved.

john.

 

Hi johnp;
One was repenting the other one not.

(Then why, if he was already saved did he then turn to Jesus and say "remember me".}


Luke, chapter 23
"40": But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? (First he feared God, which is the beginning of wisdom.)

"41": And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. (Then he confessed with his mouth)

"42": And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (Then he ask Jesus to forgive him, which Jesus did "ask and ye shall receive, believe with thine heart and confess with thy mouth".) To read this any other way you have to "suppose"


Calvinbaptist;
You have no Scripture at all for that statement and you know it.

 

ROFLOL!!! and we come full circle, as the second post in the thread prophetically predicted:

stating that the gospel is important is not tantamount to saying I worship Calvin

blessings,
Ken

 

It's funny you should say that because I was thinking the same thing last night. Satan must love this waste of time.

Instead of doing what Christ said and getting the message of the Gospel to the world, we instead debate a fine point on how we got saved instead! </font>[/QUOTE]whether God saves us by grace through faith alone (monergism), or whether we decide to be saved by some mixture of our decision plus our faith through grace (synergism) is not a "fine point", it is what the Reformation was largely about.... if it was important enough to break away from Roman Catholicism, it is important enough to debate today. The Reformers had to battle the Roman Catholics over this issue, sometimes it cost them their very lives, today, we have to battle against the RC and a large part of the "Evangelical" church, and battle we will, Lord willing.

blessings,
Ken

 

If anyone is weary over the 2000-year-old debate over the Biblical way to come into a right relationship to God, they are free to retire from it.

Because we are discussing matters of eternal importance, we cannot do it impassionately. Sometimes that passion crosses the line into vitriol. When it does, two things happen: Other posters will call them on it, or the moderators will step in.

If this is too rough-and-tumble for tender feelings, the group hug categories are further down this board.

In the meantime, I want our discussions to be robust and passionate and arguments strongly articulated.

 

Genesis12, just a quick comment on the above statement - Calvinists don't believe that we are saved "all along" and just simply become aware of it. Maybe some Hyper-C's believe that, but not Biblical Calvinists. Even though our redemption was secured on the cross, that repemption still needs to applied in space and time to the elect, where they pass from death unto life.