A sincere question for Catholics

Kelly:
Thanks for the apology. That is pretty rare around here. But, you did bring up a good point. Those who look so hard to identify the anti-Christ and whore of Babylon usually, maybe not you, ignore the Scripture that describes the true Church of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ told His Church they would be called names just like he was. Those who focus on the Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon don't seem to ponder how the true Church will have Jesus Christ's authority on earth, be the pillar and foundation of truth….. The light of the world. …. A city set on a hill…..holy and without blemish.

His Church is all these things because the Church is the Body of Christ with Jesus Christ as the head. Jesus Christ will thresh out the weeds and burn them. He will separate the goats from the sheep and take his bride the Church. What is holy, is only holy because of His grace. Those who don't have His grace whether Catholic or non-Catholic will be cast out into the fire. His grace is his life....eternal life...the living water. The Kingdom of God is within us and this life will reach fulfillment when Jesus Christ comes in glory for the final judgement.

God Bless

 

Huh? If eating is through the purchase of food in a store, that is the food from a farm, does that mean that the food is a farm?
We obtain Christ's righteousness, that HE obtained from God, through Faith in Him.</font>[/QUOTE]Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Notice in verse ten immediately following, Paul says, "that I may know HIM, and the power of his resurrection." This is an obvious reference to Christ. The pronoun "Him" has as its antecedent "God" in verse 9, the same verse that teaches that righteousness is through faith in Christ, and by faith in God. For Christ and God are one and the same.
So then, my question remains the same: Is Christ God?

The emphasis in this question was on the word "alone." The verse does say that righteousness "is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"
It does not say "faith plus anthing." It implies that it is faith alone. Do you believe that we are saved by faith, and by faith alone?

My question here was on what basis could Christ make this claim that He was the only way to Heaven. Why could Christ make this claim? On what authority? Or is it possible that some other religious figure could be the way to heaven? Why not?
DHK

 

Kathryn,

Ray is saying, 'I agree almost 90% of what you have said, thanks be to the Lord. It is a pleasant feeling when you can agree with someone about spiritual matters.'

The Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth will have the wheat and
the chaff side by side until Jesus Christ gathers His wheat into the barn and
burns the chaff in the fire.

"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing
floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff
with unquenchable fire." Matthew 3:12

The Pillar and foundation of truth church has the keys, which were given to
first Peter and the apostles. This was real authority of Jesus Christ Himself,
with real authority to go to all nations baptizing and teaching all He
commanded.

Ray-'I have preached about the wheat and the chaff and the winnowing floor at times.'

The authority of Jesus Christ to bind and loose sin.

Ray-'I think the Roman Catholic priests get 'high handed' as to this truth. First, no one can loose another person's sins except Jesus Christ. If I pray with the congregation a Prayer of Public Confession only God knows who is sincere in this matter. So when a minister or a priest ministers the Absolution of Sins he is only speaking to those who were truly penitent. If absolution were universal all a clergy would have to do is bring multitudes to some arenas, fill the stadiums and say words of absolution over all souls present, and in theory everybody in the whole world would end up saved. Getting saved and becoming a child of God is a personal experience between the person and the Lord.'

The authority to anoint the sick and offer the prayer that would forgive sin.

Ray-Again I believe in praying for the sick and have been used of God in bring healing and spiritual renewal to some Christians.

The authority to bless the cup of blessing and break the bread. Jesus Christ gave his command to Peter…feed my sheep….feed my lambs….feed my sheep.

Ray-'All priests and ministers are charged to minister the Eucharist and to feed the souls of their flocks.'

He was left the chief shepherd.

Ray--If you mean Peter was instructed and told that he was the chief shepherd, I need a chapter and verse on this huge responsibility. I think you are going to find difficulty in coming across this truth in your Douay/Catholic Bible. Peter never portrayed his ego as being the first Pontiff and shepherd over the entire world. He does call himself and apostle and servant of Jesus Christ. [II Peter 1:1] As far as human gifts and education, the Apostle Paul was greater, at least in human eyes, than Peter.'


Jesus Christ has promised to separate the goats from the sheep. He is the judge of who belong to him, not us.

Ray-'I agree with you, Kathryn.

Scripture teaches that Communion is more than symbols of his body and blood. It is sharing in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The Supper of the Lamb.

Ray-We absolutely do not believe in the re-sacrifice of Christ in the Mass. This becomes a big problem to us and is only reality in the minds of some people. Christ sacrifice happened only once as documented in Hebrews 9:26. ' . . . but now once in the end of the world, {meaning His crucifixion} He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.' To think that Jesus re-sacrifices Himself at every mass, is to say that His first and only crucifixion was somehow inadequate.'

"Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is
not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?" 1 Corinthians
10:16

Ray-One would think that if our sacrament of Communion were really His body and blood of Jesus, soon He would be fully consumed by the worshippers. He wants to remind us that His body was broken for us on the Cross and that it is His precious blood that cleanses our sins and removes them from His records.

The Sacraments give us grace… a sharing in His life.

Ray-Being a human being it is more than difficult for me to know how much new grace I have received by receiving the sacrament of Holy Communion. I do sense that I have been obedient to Jesus when approaching and receiving the bread and wine.

I agree with you 110% about the vital importance of 'holiness of heart' in the lives of His people. Christians are so worldly today, that I think, this important reality cannot be preached about enough.

True holiness of heart is not our keeping all of the church rules and the Law, but is rather realizing that any holiness that we might have is because it is Christ in us via the Holy Spirit. We do not obey God because of fear of His awesomeness, but because we love Him because of what He did for us on the Cross. We should not be proud of some degree of piety that we might have, because it is His righteousness/holiness that is imputed in us when we believe and trust in Christ. [Romans 4:5 & 8] Please, don't misunderstand me, just because we have His grace is no excuse for disobeying the Lord or committing wilful sin against Jesus Christ. Jesus said, 'Be ye holy for I am holy.' Purity of heart is our ultimate goal in glorifying God.

 

Hi, Ray:

I am glad we can agree on some things, too. However, your understanding of the gospel is faulty and incomplete in many ways. I am glad we agree Holy Scriptures teaches the wheat and chaff will be separated by Jesus Christ when He comes in Glory. We will not find the Church that Jesus Christ established having just saved people in it. Many use the excuse of the Catholic Church having weeds as evidence that it could not be the true Church.

John 20:23
"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Matthew 16:19
" I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18:18
"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Jesus Christ Himself gave His authority to forgive sins or to retain sins. True repentance is necessary for this forgiveness. This true authority given in Sacred Scripture is ignored by you.

James 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;

James 5:15
and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

Once again this is real authority. With real oil. The prayer of the minister offered in faith will absolve the sins of the person. This is real. You mention nothing about using the oil or your prayer forgiving any sins. It is not an anointing if you do not anoint. This is done with the authority of Jesus Christ. This is what Jesus Christ's true Church was doing at the time of the Apostles and for two thousand years since.

I agree that in many human eyes Paul was greater. Jesus Christ however gave the keys to Peter. It was to Peter that Jesus Christ charged him with being the head shepherd. Previously Jesus had told Peter all the apostles would all fall away, and Peter said he would not. Jesus told him how he would fall away by denying him 3 times. Later Jesus affirmed Peter 3 times with the commission to feed His sheep making him the head Shepherd….with the keys. Actually all this is done before Jesus Christ goes to heaven, and before St. Paul comes on the scene. It was Peter who called the Apostles to choose another to replace Judas. He takes the lead. Even entering the tomb of Jesus, Peter was given the honor of going in first.

John 21:15
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

John 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Catholics absolutely do not believe in the re-sacrifice of Christ in the Mass. It is the one and the same sacrifice made present .

Yet this is not what Sacred Scripture tells us. St. Paul says this his how we share in this one and the same sacrifice of His body and blood.

"Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is
not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?" 1 Corinthians
10:16

We are temples of the Holy Spirit so holiness is not just the ultimate goal. The kingdom of God really is at hand. The kingdom of God is within us.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The supernatural life of Christ within us is real. The words of Christ are real, This is my Body, this is my blood is real. The water and spirit of Baptism are real. Jesus’ baptism was real. The Father and Holy Spirit really witnessed to Jesus Christ being the Son of God. The rivers of living water are real…..it is the life of God within us. We are really children of God now, not later after we die and go to heaven. The sacraments are the instruments of God's grace.

Generally, I find that too much of Holy Scripture is ignored to deny Jesus left any authority on earth, and to deny the sacraments are the instruments of God's grace. Yes, I am glad for what we do agree on, but don't understand how so many parts of the gospel can be ignored to retain belief in the lack of the real presence of God's supernatural life in us through the sacraments described in Scripture. And the lack of the authority left by Jesus Christ to forgive sins, and bless the cup of Blessing, anoint with oil the sick to forgive sin, etc.

God Bless

[ June 25, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

I am glad we can agree on some things, too. However, your understanding
of the gospel is faulty and incomplete in many ways.

Ray-I see many holes in your theology also and some add on's which are not in the Bible; for example the cleverly devised concept of the Assumption of Mary into Heaven. If God did not tell us of this fact at the time of the closing of the canon, it sure is not important or even the truth now.

Many use the excuse of the Catholic Church having weeds as evidence that it could not be the true Church.

Ray-I do not feel that way about your church; I am sure there are unsaved people in your church but there are as many and probably more in our churches. To many the church is a social club or a place to find business perspectives.

This true authority given in
Sacred Scripture is ignored by you.

Ray-I am not ignoring the authority of the Scripture. Only those who confess their sins can receive absolution from the clergy. In the case that you are making, a priest or minister can both forgive and absolve anyone who drops by the church, without their will to change being involved.

The authority to anoint the sick and offer the prayer that would
forgive sin.

Ray--I too, believe if someone receives physical healing God also blesses them with the healing of the soul.

Ray-Again I believe in praying for the sick and have been used of
God in bring healing and spiritual renewal to some Christians.


James 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the
church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the
name of the Lord;

James 5:15
and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and
the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be
forgiven him.

Once again this is real authority. With real oil. The prayer of the minister
offered in faith will absolve the sins of the person. This is real. You mention
nothing about using the oil or your prayer forgiving any sins. It is not an
anointing if you do not anoint. This is done with the authority of Jesus Christ.
This is what Jesus Christ's true Church was doing at the time of the Apostles
and for two thousand years since.

Ray is saying, My son was about 14 months old and could not even keep water on his system. His ribs shown and I called my parents because I knew he was going to die. I read James 5 over him and anointed him with oil, and prayed for him; within two two hours God raised him up to new physical life.

I also have had services of anointing at my church.

Ray-'All priests and ministers are charged to minister the Eucharist and to feed the souls of their flocks.'

Ray-'Peter called himself only an apostle and servant of Jesus Christ. [II Peter 1:1] God never elevated Peter as the first Pope and has not elevated the following ones to become the bishop of the Catholic world. This is a man made system.' {no hurt intended}

It was Peter who called the Apostles to choose another to replace Judas. He takes the lead. Even entering the tomb of Jesus, Peter was given the honor of going in first.

Ray-I have not studied the chronological order of this; you are right if you have studied the matter.

Ray-I agree, Peter was first among equals in relation to the rest of the apostolate.

John 21:15
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of
Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord;
thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

John 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest
thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love
thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou
me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time,
Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things;
thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Ray--Did you know that Jesus changed the word for love each time in these passages? I have preached from this Scripture also.

Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Ray-Anyone who knows how to lead a soul to Christ also has the Keys to the Kingdom; even the lowliest minister or priest or laity.


Scripture teaches that Communion is more than symbols of his
body and blood. It is sharing in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.
The Supper of the Lamb.

Ray-We absolutely do not believe in the re-sacrifice of Christ in the Mass.


Catholics absolutely do not believe in the re-sacrifice of Christ in the Mass. It
is the one and the same sacrifice made present.

"Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of
Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?" 1
Corinthians 10:16

Ray-One would think that if our sacrament of Communion were
really His body and blood of Jesus, soon He would be fully
consumed by the worshippers. He wants to remind us that His
body was broken for us on the Cross and that it is His precious
blood that cleanses our sins and removes them from His records.


Kathryn said, 'Yet this is not what Sacred Scripture tells us. St. Paul says this his how we
share in this one and the same sacrifice of His body and blood.

Ray-Thanks for clarifying your understanding of things to me. You believe because the blood and body is real, it requires a 'fast forward' of His once for all sacrifice on the Cross.

The Sacraments give us grace… a sharing in His life.

Ray-'Being a human being it is more than difficult for me to know how much new grace I have received by receiving the sacrament. At the Holy Communion I do sense that I have been obedient to Jesus when approaching and receiving the bread and wine, the Body and blood of Jesus.

Ray --'I agree with you 110% about the vital importance of 'holiness of
heart' in the lives of His people. Christians are so worldly today,
that I think, this important reality cannot be preached about
enough.

True holiness of heart is not our keeping all of the church rules
and the Law, but is rather realizing that any holiness that we
might have is because it is Christ in us via the Holy Spirit. We do
not obey God because of fear of His awesomeness, but because
we love Him because of what He did for us on the Cross. We
should not be proud of some degree of piety that we might have,
because it is His righteousness/holiness that is imputed in us when
we believe and trust in Christ. [Romans 4:5 & 8] Kathryn, you did not respond to this above passage; do you agree with it?

Ray is saying, 'Please, don't misunderstand me, just because we have His grace is no excuse
for disobeying the Lord or committing wilful sin against Jesus Christ. Jesus said, 'Be ye holy for I am holy.' Purity of heart is our ultimate goal in glorifying God.


Kathryn said, We are temples of the Holy Spirit so holiness is not just the ultimate goal.

Ray-I agree that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. [I Corinthians 6:19-20] I try, the Lord being my Helper, to live for Him and to love Him here and now, but my ultimate goal is to be more like Him each day. I John 3:3 says, 'And every man {woman} that hath this hope in him, purifieth himself, even as He is pure.'

Kathryn said, 'The kingdom of God really is at hand. The kingdom of God is within us.

Ray-Yes, you are right.

Kathryn said, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Ray-If this question is directed to me. My answer is yes, I know He will abide in my heart forever. [John 14:16] Do you have this assurance as a Catholic believer?

Kathryn said, 'The supernatural life of Christ within us is real. The words of Christ are real,
This is my Body, this is my blood is real. The water and spirit of Baptism are
real. Jesus' baptism was real. The Father and Holy Spirit really witnessed to
Jesus Christ being the Son of God. The rivers of living water are real…..it is
the life of God within us. We are really children of God now, not later after
we die and go to heaven. The sacraments are the instruments of God's
grace.

Ray-I agree with your statements above.

Kathryn said, 'I find that too much of Holy Scripture is ignored to take the real grace within
us out of our lives.

Ray-No Scripture is being ignored by me. And no one can take grace out of our lives or from us as you said. I John 4:4 says, ' . . . greater is He Who is in you, than he that is in the world.'

Kathryn said, ' . . . understand how so many parts of the gospel can be ignored to retain belief
in the lack of the real presence of God's supernatural life in us.

Ray-No Scripture is overlooked but at times your interpretation/exegesis differs from ours.

Ray-Please, do not ignore all of the O.T. prophecies about Jesus setting up His theocracy on this earth: Isaiah 9:6, Micah 5:2 & Zechariah 14:17; the coming of Christ for His church/rapture; [I Thess. 4:17]the Judgment Seat of Christ II Cor. 5:10; the Great Tribulation; the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth for 1,000 years; the Marriage of the Lamb; the Marriage Supper of the Lamb; the Woman in Scarlet-Rev. 17; the Second Coming of Christ [Rev. 19:11]; the War of Gog & Magog -Rev. 20:8; the Battle of Armegeddon; the False Prophet; the resurrection of the unjust-Rev. 20:5; the Great White Throne Judgment [for the unsaved-Rev. 20:11]; the New Jerusalem Coming down out of Heaven-Rev. 21:13.

These above events have not taken place to this point in time. I say it kindly, but don't be blinded as to these future events. It's catch up time as to your understanding of these truths also.

 

Everyone of us have a different point of view because of our varied backgrounds. Some of us agree more than others. You posed the original question which had to do about the possibility of the unsaved (such as Muslims and Buddhists) being saved. Before that question can even be answered one has to have a good grasp of what salvation is. That is what I am trying to establish--step by step.
What I am asking of you should not be offensive if you are a Christian. Consider what Ray says to Kathyrn as an axample:

I will ask of you the same thing, but step by step.
In regards to the first question you didn't already answer it; in fact you avoided answering it.
DHK

 

Hi Ray: This thread is getting a bit unwieldy and long.

Ray, we are discussing Scripture here and our understanding of it. Not altar calls or the Assumption of Mary. Can you show me where the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is taught in the Bible? I do not believe in this man made doctrine. Scripture says to hold fast to the traditions oral and written that are handed down from the Apostles. This seems to be a much ignored part of Holy Scripture.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

Agreed! Yet, this is not for us to judge. Jesus Christ is the one who judges them and sorts them out. We are to belong to the Church Jesus Christ established.

Not true. I have no idea where you get this idea about what a priest does. The person confesses their sins individually in person to the priest who has the authority of Jesus Christ to bind and to loose. True repentance is necessary or the sin is not forgiven by Jesus Christ. No priest tries to forgive sins without the person’s will to change being involved. That is silly. Jesus Christ does the actual forgiving and gives His Grace. If the person was not sincere in their repentance they still have their sins.

John 20:23
"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Matthew 16:19
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18:18
"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

There is no reason to ignore Scripture here and the authority Jesus gave to the Apostles.

Good, I am glad you use the oil and your prayers of faith heal and restore the soul to grace for the sick. Most here would not accept that.

I had not thought about the change in words for love. I notice he used lambs once and twice sheep. There seems to be some significance to that (individuals as well as the whole flock). I do know that Jesus could read the thoughts and intentions of his heart and decided Peter was to feed his sheep and is the chief shepherd.

John 21:15
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of
Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord;
thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

John 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest
thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love
thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou
me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time,
Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things;
thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

I am sorry, but this is very unscriptural. According to the word of God the Apostles and chiefly Peter have the keys, and Jesus Christ is the one with the keys at the end of time in Revelations. Nothing about everybody else having them too. Evangelizing the world is not the same as having the authority of the King which the keys are symbolic of from the Old Testament. Everyone does not have the authority to bind on earth and have it be bound in heaven.

Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The Sacrifice is not a “fast forward”. I would stick with what St. Paul says that this is how we share in same sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

"Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of
Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?" 1
Corinthians 10:16

All ministers do not follow Holy Scripture and bless the cup of blessing. Most don’t even use the words Jesus Christ used to bless the cup of blessing. Some use crackers and grape juice.

Yes, I do. Because, I have God's supernatural life within me now...His grace. The rivers of living water...God's life within me. If I was to stumble into serious sin, God has promised to forgive my sins if I repent and confess them and His supernatural grace will be restored to me. I have my breastplate of faith and love, and my helmet that is the hope of salvation. I am a member of the Body of Christ with Jesus Christ as the head of the Body.

Romans 8:24
For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

Romans 8:25
But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:6
whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Titus 3:7
so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Yes, much is ignored. I agree that no one can take grace from us. Many however deny that grace is given by God in the sacraments, Baptism, Eucharist, Anointing Sick, Confession of Sins, etc. They ignore much of Scripture to retain this belief.

Yes, the authority of the clergy to forgive sins is ignored, the authority to bind and to loose is ignored. What is bound on earth shall be bound in heaven is ignored. The keys as symbols of this authority is given to everyone instead of what Scripture tells us it being given first Peter and then the other Apostles. The “cup of blessing which we bless” is not how we share in the blood of Christ on the cross as St. Paul tells us. The bread we break is not how we share in His body. Yet this is what St. Paul tells us in the word of God.

The Kingdom of heaven is at hand now and many of the prophecies have been fulfilled, and many more are being fulfilled now, and the full completion of them all will be at a time we do not know before hand of. We are to always be prepared like the parable of the brides with the oil. Jesus Christ will come in Glory to judge the living and the dead. Jesus Christ will take His bride and the marriage feast of the lamb will be fulfilled. I am very familiar with this because I share in the supper of the lamb, the Holy Eucharist as the apostles did every day... St. Paul says, Christ our Passover has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast.....

God Bless

[ June 25, 2003, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Kathryn,

You believe the 'binding' and 'loosing' that was given to Peter. Does this mean that all priests have this same authority? Does this include other Christian pastors other than Roman Catholic clergy?{in your personal view}

I understand, through your clarifying, what priests minister when 'binding and loosing.'

The reason I do not believe your view of the everlasting Kingdom being right now, apart from the mega events that I listed as eschatological times that still are on the way, is because these noted times have not been experienced to date. This means that all of these events, you still have to press into your 'church/kingdom' view. Yes, I agree that all Christians now are in the church age and indeed are part of His everlasting Kingdom. But, this does not mean that my listed events don't have to take place. They are yet to be fulfilled on God's calendar of human history. This allows for Christ's Messianic Kingdom on earth/1000 year reign of Jesus theocracy on earth. [Revelation 20:2-7] It is referred to six times in six brief verses; it must have been important for God to get the message through to all Christians.

 

DHK:

I will ask of you the same thing, but step by step. </font>[/QUOTE]DHK: Would you please correct this to “Consider what Kathryn says to Ray as an example” : I trust it was an honest mistake, and you will set the record straight.


God Bless You

 

Ray:

This authority is given to the priest by the bishop who has the authority of Jesus Christ from Apostolic succession given to them with their ordination and the laying on of hands by the Bishop. As far as other Christian pastors, I don’t think it is the same without this authority. If a Christian pastor rejects the authority inherit in Apostolic succession and that Jesus left, then it is hard to claim to have this authority to forgive sins in His name.

Thanks for accepting my explanation as what we believe.

If I am not mistaken your view does not consider Communion to be the Supper of the Lamb. St. Paul says, Christ our Passover has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast.....

You say the number of times spoken about something shows it’s importance. How many times did Jesus Christ refer to the importance of His Body and Blood? Must have been very important for God to get the message through. My list here is just a fraction of what Jesus said about the importance of His body and blood. Sadly, many Churches put very little importance on it. We don’t even have to wait for the end of the world for this part of the end times.

John 6:53
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

Matthew 26:26
While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."

Mark 14:22
While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take it; this is My body."

Luke 22:19
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

1 Corinthians 10:17
Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.

1 Corinthians 11:24
and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

1 Corinthians 11:27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 11:29
For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.

Mark 14:24
And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

John 6:54
"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:55
"For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

John 6:56
"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

1 Corinthians 10:16
Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?

The Old Testament has a prophecy also:

Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

God Bless

 

Why should you be either offended or irritated? It ought to be a joy to discuss the Bible on any issue should it not. On the other thread you love to discuss soul sleep. What is wrong here? I have some very basic questions pertaining to salvation; I have not been rude or offensive. Do you fear for your salvation, or do you have something to hide? What is your problem? I answer your questions concerning soul sleep. You were the one that started this thread. Now you are reluctant to carry it on. What are you afraid of?

WHAT GAME ARE WE PLAYING???
I don't play games. I even had my son delete all the games off my computer to free up more space for more Bible programs. I'm just asking straight forward questions. That is all.

That is a matter of opinion. I don't believe you did.

If you are willing to have meaningful discussion, I will take your answers and more as I trust you will clarify them as I requested.
DHK

 

I will ask of you the same thing, but step by step. </font>[/QUOTE]DHK: Would you please correct this to “Consider what Kathryn says to Ray as an example” : I trust it was an honest mistake, and you will set the record straight.


God Bless You </font>[/QUOTE]Yes it was an honest mistake Kathryn. It was the first statement of Ray's post, and it was not in quotes, so I attributed it to him. I found out later that it was your original quote. Sorry.
DHK

 

1. Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Notice in verse ten immediately following, Paul says, "that I may know HIM, and the power of his resurrection." This is an obvious reference to Christ. The pronoun "Him" has as its antecedent "God" in verse 9, the same verse that teaches that righteousness is through faith in Christ, and by faith in God. For Christ and God are one and the same.
So then, my question remains the same: Is Christ God?

2. If righteousness is through faith in Christ, does that mean that that righteousness comes through faith alone? That is what the verse seems to imply.
The emphasis in this question was on the word "alone." The verse does say that righteousness "is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"
It does not say "faith plus anthing." It implies that it is faith alone. Do you believe that we are saved by faith, and by faith alone?

3. My question here was on what basis could Christ make this claim that He was the only way to Heaven. Why could Christ make this claim? On what authority? Or is it possible that some other religious figure could be the way to heaven? Why not?
DHK

 

Thanks, DHK. I knew it was an honest mistake. I was just giving you a hard time.

God Bless

 

Look again, those aren't the same questions that I just posted. What are you afraid of?
DHK