Hi Ray: This thread is getting a bit unwieldy and long.
Ray-I see many holes in your theology also and some add on's which are not in the Bible; for example the cleverly devised concept of the Assumption of Mary into Heaven. If God did not tell us of this fact at the time of the closing of the canon, it sure is not important or even the truth now.
Ray, we are discussing Scripture here and our understanding of it. Not altar calls or the Assumption of Mary. Can you show me where the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is taught in the Bible? I do not believe in this man made doctrine. Scripture says to hold fast to the traditions oral and written that are handed down from the Apostles. This seems to be a much ignored part of Holy Scripture.
1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
Many use the excuse of the Catholic Church having weeds as evidence that it could not be the true Church.
Ray-I do not feel that way about your church; I am sure there are unsaved people in your church but there are as many and probably more in our churches. To many the church is a social club or a place to find business perspectives.
Agreed! Yet, this is not for us to judge. Jesus Christ is the one who judges them and sorts them out. We are to belong to the Church Jesus Christ established.
Ray-I am not ignoring the authority of the Scripture. Only those who confess their sins can receive absolution from the clergy. In the case that you are making, a priest or minister can both forgive and absolve anyone who drops by the church, without their will to change being involved.
Not true. I have no idea where you get this idea about what a priest does. The person confesses their sins individually in person to the priest who has the authority of Jesus Christ to bind and to loose. True repentance is necessary or the sin is not forgiven by Jesus Christ. No priest tries to forgive sins without the person’s will to change being involved. That is silly. Jesus Christ does the actual forgiving and gives His Grace. If the person was not sincere in their repentance they still have their sins.
John 20:23
"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."
Matthew 16:19
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
Matthew 18:18
"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
There is no reason to ignore Scripture here and the authority Jesus gave to the Apostles.
The authority to anoint the sick and offer the prayer that would
forgive sin.
Ray--I too, believe if someone receives physical healing God also blesses them with the healing of the soul.
Ray-Again I believe in praying for the sick and have been used of
God in bring healing and spiritual renewal to some Christians.
James 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the
church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the
name of the Lord;
James 5:15
and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and
the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be
forgiven him.
Once again this is real authority. With real oil. The prayer of the minister
offered in faith will absolve the sins of the person. This is real. You mention
nothing about using the oil or your prayer forgiving any sins. It is not an
anointing if you do not anoint. This is done with the authority of Jesus Christ.
This is what Jesus Christ's true Church was doing at the time of the Apostles
and for two thousand years since.
Ray is saying, My son was about 14 months old and could not even keep water on his system. His ribs shown and I called my parents because I knew he was going to die. I read James 5 over him and anointed him with oil, and prayed for him; within two two hours God raised him up to new physical life.
I also have had services of anointing at my church.
Good, I am glad you use the oil and your prayers of faith heal and restore the soul to grace for the sick. Most here would not accept that.
Ray-'All priests and ministers are charged to minister the Eucharist and to feed the souls of their flocks.'
Ray-'Peter called himself only an apostle and servant of Jesus Christ. [II Peter 1:1] God never elevated Peter as the first Pope and has not elevated the following ones to become the bishop of the Catholic world. This is a man made system.' {no hurt intended}
It was Peter who called the Apostles to choose another to replace Judas. He takes the lead. Even entering the tomb of Jesus, Peter was given the honor of going in first.
Ray-I have not studied the chronological order of this; you are right if you have studied the matter.
Ray-I agree, Peter was first among equals in relation to the rest of the apostolate.
Ray--Did you know that Jesus changed the word for love each time in these passages? I have preached from this Scripture also.
I had not thought about the change in words for love. I notice he used lambs once and twice sheep. There seems to be some significance to that (individuals as well as the whole flock). I do know that Jesus could read the thoughts and intentions of his heart and decided Peter was to feed his sheep and is the chief shepherd.
John 21:15
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of
Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord;
thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
John 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest
thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love
thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou
me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time,
Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things;
thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Ray-Anyone who knows how to lead a soul to Christ also has the Keys to the Kingdom; even the lowliest minister or priest or laity.
I am sorry, but this is very unscriptural. According to the word of God the Apostles and chiefly Peter have the keys, and Jesus Christ is the one with the keys at the end of time in Revelations. Nothing about everybody else having them too. Evangelizing the world is not the same as having the authority of the King which the keys are symbolic of from the Old Testament. Everyone does not have the authority to bind on earth and have it be bound in heaven.
Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Scripture teaches that Communion is more than symbols of his
body and blood. It is sharing in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.
The Supper of the Lamb.
Ray-We absolutely do not believe in the re-sacrifice of Christ in the Mass.
Catholics absolutely do not believe in the re-sacrifice of Christ in the Mass. It
is the one and the same sacrifice made present.
Ray-One would think that if our sacrament of Communion were
really His body and blood of Jesus, soon He would be fully
consumed by the worshippers. He wants to remind us that His
body was broken for us on the Cross and that it is His precious
blood that cleanses our sins and removes them from His records.
Kathryn said, 'Yet this is not what Sacred Scripture tells us. St. Paul says this his how we
share in this one and the same sacrifice of His body and blood.
Ray-Thanks for clarifying your understanding of things to me. You believe because the blood and body is real, it requires a 'fast forward' of His once for all sacrifice on the Cross.
The Sacrifice is not a “fast forward”. I would stick with what St. Paul says that this is how we share in same sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
"Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of
Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?" 1
Corinthians 10:16
All ministers do not follow Holy Scripture and bless the cup of blessing. Most don’t even use the words Jesus Christ used to bless the cup of blessing. Some use crackers and grape juice.
The Sacraments give us grace… a sharing in His life.
Ray-'Being a human being it is more than difficult for me to know how much new grace I have received by receiving the sacrament. At the Holy Communion I do sense that I have been obedient to Jesus when approaching and receiving the bread and wine, the Body and blood of Jesus.
Ray --'I agree with you 110% about the vital importance of 'holiness of
heart' in the lives of His people. Christians are so worldly today,
that I think, this important reality cannot be preached about
enough.
True holiness of heart is not our keeping all of the church rules
and the Law, but is rather realizing that any holiness that we
might have is because it is Christ in us via the Holy Spirit. We do
not obey God because of fear of His awesomeness, but because
we love Him because of what He did for us on the Cross. We
should not be proud of some degree of piety that we might have,
because it is His righteousness/holiness that is imputed in us when
we believe and trust in Christ. [Romans 4:5 & 8] Kathryn, you did not respond to this above passage; do you agree with it?
Ray is saying, 'Please, don't misunderstand me, just because we have His grace is no excuse
for disobeying the Lord or committing wilful sin against Jesus Christ. Jesus said, 'Be ye holy for I am holy.' Purity of heart is our ultimate goal in glorifying God.
Kathryn said, We are temples of the Holy Spirit so holiness is not just the ultimate goal.
Ray-I agree that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. [I Corinthians 6:19-20] I try, the Lord being my Helper, to live for Him and to love Him here and now, but my ultimate goal is to be more like Him each day. I John 3:3 says, 'And every man {woman} that hath this hope in him, purifieth himself, even as He is pure.'
Kathryn said, 'The kingdom of God really is at hand. The kingdom of God is within us.
Ray-Yes, you are right.
Kathryn said, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
Ray-If this question is directed to me. My answer is yes, I know He will abide in my heart forever. [John 14:16] Do you have this assurance as a Catholic believer?
Yes, I do. Because, I have God's supernatural life within me now...His grace. The rivers of living water...God's life within me. If I was to stumble into serious sin, God has promised to forgive my sins if I repent and confess them and His supernatural grace will be restored to me. I have my breastplate of faith and love, and my helmet that is the hope of salvation. I am a member of the Body of Christ with Jesus Christ as the head of the Body.
Romans 8:24
For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
Romans 8:25
But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Titus 3:6
whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Titus 3:7
so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Ray-No Scripture is being ignored by me. And no one can take grace out of our lives or from us as you said. I John 4:4 says, ' . . . greater is He Who is in you, than he that is in the world.'
Yes, much is ignored. I agree that no one can take grace from us. Many however deny that grace is given by God in the sacraments, Baptism, Eucharist, Anointing Sick, Confession of Sins, etc. They ignore much of Scripture to retain this belief.
Kathryn said, ' . . . understand how so many parts of the gospel can be ignored to retain belief
in the lack of the real presence of God's supernatural life in us.
Ray-No Scripture is overlooked but at times your interpretation/exegesis differs from ours.
Yes, the authority of the clergy to forgive sins is ignored, the authority to bind and to loose is ignored. What is bound on earth shall be bound in heaven is ignored. The keys as symbols of this authority is given to everyone instead of what Scripture tells us it being given first Peter and then the other Apostles. The “cup of blessing which we bless” is not how we share in the blood of Christ on the cross as St. Paul tells us. The bread we break is not how we share in His body. Yet this is what St. Paul tells us in the word of God.
Ray-Please, do not ignore all of the O.T. prophecies about Jesus setting up His theocracy on this earth: Isaiah 9:6, Micah 5:2 & Zechariah 14:17; the coming of Christ for His church/rapture; [I Thess. 4:17]the Judgment Seat of Christ II Cor. 5:10; the Great Tribulation; the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth for 1,000 years; the Marriage of the Lamb; the Marriage Supper of the Lamb; the Woman in Scarlet-Rev. 17; the Second Coming of Christ [Rev. 19:11]; the War of Gog & Magog -Rev. 20:8; the Battle of Armegeddon; the False Prophet; the resurrection of the unjust-Rev. 20:5; the Great White Throne Judgment [for the unsaved-Rev. 20:11]; the New Jerusalem Coming down out of Heaven-Rev. 21:13.
These above events have not taken place to this point in time. I say it kindly, but don't be blinded as to these future events. It's catch up time as to your understanding of these truths also.
The Kingdom of heaven is at hand now and many of the prophecies have been fulfilled, and many more are being fulfilled now, and the full completion of them all will be at a time we do not know before hand of. We are to always be prepared like the parable of the brides with the oil. Jesus Christ will come in Glory to judge the living and the dead. Jesus Christ will take His bride and the marriage feast of the lamb will be fulfilled. I am very familiar with this because I share in the supper of the lamb, the Holy Eucharist as the apostles did every day... St. Paul says, Christ our Passover has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast.....
God Bless
[ June 25, 2003, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
