Will the Lake of Fire Ever Go Out?

So it is okay to use just your version and not look at others? What about the Greek? I have a Greek text (Nestle) that says 'are being punished', not 'to be punished'. The problem is you think people are asleep right now and not being punished. This verse is saying the unjust are reserved under punishment right now. See the problem?

As for the contradiction, you make it seem as if they are being punished right now, they have 'received their reward'. I am saying that if they are being punished right now they have received nothing yet.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]No I didn't say that at all, I simply stated that I didn't leave anything out enforced by the fact that I looked it up in the KJV. I too have a literal greek and it doesn't say that.

3588| the
|0094| unjust
|1161| but
|1519| for
|2250| a day
|2920| of judgment
|2849| to punish
|5083| reserved

The word there in question (2849) is kolazo {kol-ad'-zo} v 1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings 2) to curb, check, restrain 3) to chastise, correct, punishment 4) to cause to be punished

The tense of this word is an action it is not a state of being word. The word 'being' is not in the original text. It is a verb. 'to punish', 'to cause to be punished', does not equate 'being punished'.

Again, if they are already being punished, it would be rather pointless for Jesus to 'have His reward with Him' and for the 'dead both small and great' to be resurrected to be judged according to their works, and THEN be punished again.

The point is, if you think that the 'reward' is eternity in hell, then when you think that the wicked are ALREADY in hell, then they are ALREADY getting their reward.

I agree with none of that. They aren't in torment. They haven't received their reward. They are reserved, for judgement, to be punished. Kept somewhere *safe* waiting for the judgement.

Just because it is said that way in another translation, doesn't mean it was in the original text. I am always careful when reading ANY version, to see what the original text said. You never know what the original said, unless you look, and this isn't the first time the 'translations' have conflicted with the original.

God Bless.

 

Simple. You were alive before you sinned. Rules out original sin here. The Holy Spirit is in a child until they sin willfully. Then, like Paul says: Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. He was ALIVE without the law. So when He KNEW that it was sin, and did it anyway, HE DIED. He was spiritually dead, because He was then without the Holy Spirit. He didn't physically die, and it wasn't 'his ghost' that died. Otherwise (according to your tripartite theory) how could he have still been a man?
</font>[/QUOTE]"The Holy Spirit is in a child until they sin willfully."

How do you reconcile this belief with the Scripture:

Psam 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Psalm 58:3 Firstly we know, by David's language that this is figurative, becuase surely no one thinks that a baby is capable of speaking, as soon as they are born. I think this is a hindsight statement. Viewing the wicked in the light of the life they lived, that NOTHING they ever did was just, because of all the sin they did commit. That from the day they were born, until now, they have no record of righteousness, only sin.

Psalm 51:5 sounds like he is talking about a woman who conceived a child through fornication. He was shapen in iniquity, and conceived in the sin of HIS MOTHER. NOT HIM.

But then, I could just say what you would say:

This is just poetry, you can't draw any doctrinal signifigance from it

God Bless.

 

I am not speaking for DHK and I thought you were specifically talking to me. We were looking at the passage of I Peter 3:18-20 and I am saying I am not building a doctrine with it. However, you don't need just this one verse to build a doctrine of everlasting separation and torment.

Actually, I wanted you to focus on some key phrases in Mark 9:42-50.

43 .., to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
44 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
45 ..to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
46 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
47 ..to be cast into hell fire
48 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

It seems clear that the hell fire burns forever. So there is the answer to your question starting this thread.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]I did address it:

It may not be what you wanted, but there isn't really much more to it than that. It says it won't be quenched. That means nothing will put it out. That doesn't mean it won't go out. The only time I have heard of a fire burning and not burning up what was in it is the burning bush. However the things in the Bible that are compared to the 'fire' that will destroy the wicked, are things like Sodom and Gomorrah, who suffered eternal fire. Are those cities still burning?

God Bless.

 

What about the worms never dying? Do they really die once the food is gone?

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]I'm pretty sure that the 'worms' here are figurative, unless the worms are granted immortality TOO!!

NO, Seriously, the place that Jesus is talking about is NOT the lake of fire. I can't stress that enough. It is Gehenah, the city dump, the place where THEIVES, RAPISTS, ADULTERERS, etc. Were thrown. You know, sins done with hands, feet, eyes. The application of the word Gehenna to mean 'hell' or the lake of fire, was not done by God.

God Bless.

 

So let's see, it is figurative when it supports your theology and not when it doesn't. Ah, I see! The double standard is so clear now!

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]No, the figurative label is applied where the Bible is being figurative. Since 'worms' cannot live through fire, we must come to the conclusion that either it was translated wrong, or it is figurative.

And you failed to answer the question. Are the worms 'immortal' worms?

The 'worm' there is the kind that feeds off of dead bodies. (There is also mention of 'birds' feeding on the bodies of the dead wicked, although that is referring to those who were killed by the brightness of His coming {I think}).

The worm 'dieth not'. In the greek:

|3699| where
|3588| the
|4663| worm
|0846| of them
|3756| not
|5053| has an end,
|2532| and
|3588| the
|4442| fire
|3756| not
|4570| is quenched.

5053 teleutao {tel-yoo-tah'-o} 1) to finish, bring to and end, close 2) to have an end or close, come to an end

It doesn't actually say that they don't die. It says that they will not finish, or be brought to an end. It is figurative here. The worms will never run out of food. There will always be something to eat. Again, this is speaking of Gehenna. The fire was not put out. The worms never came to the end. (of the pile)

Jesus knew the wickedness of man, and that as long as there was sin, there would be 'food' and 'fuel' for the worms and fire.

God Bless.

 

Revelations is not a chronological book. It is not in the 'order' in which it is going to happen.

Rev.14:10

Y----The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
X----and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
X----And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
Y----and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The topic of the Y's are about before the 2nd Coming during the 7 Bowl judgements, the topic of the X's are after the Millenium.


Y----The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
Y----and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
X----and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
X----11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

This passage is an example of a complex chiasm in an antithetical parallel, of an antiphonal grouping.

We see the same patterns in the OT as well.

Daniel 9:25-27.

Y----Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
Z----the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Y----And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
Z----and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Y----And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
Z----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Again the Y's with the Y's and the Z's with the Z's:

Y----Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
Y----And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
Y----And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Z----the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Z----and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Z----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Y----Jesus
Z----Desolator/antichrist

These passages are a prime example of antithetical parrallels in an antiphonal grouping.

And just think, I am blonde

God Bless.

 

Don't tell me I actually stumped someone.