Will the Lake of Fire Ever Go Out?

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The verse you just posted is a different version than the one I used.

So it is okay to use just your version and not look at others? What about the Greek? I have a Greek text (Nestle) that says 'are being punished', not 'to be punished'. The problem is you think people are asleep right now and not being punished. This verse is saying the unjust are reserved under punishment right now. See the problem?

As for the contradiction, you make it seem as if they are being punished right now, they have 'received their reward'. I am saying that if they are being punished right now they have received nothing yet.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]No I didn't say that at all, I simply stated that I didn't leave anything out enforced by the fact that I looked it up in the KJV. I too have a literal greek and it doesn't say that.

3588| the
|0094| unjust
|1161| but
|1519| for
|2250| a day
|2920| of judgment
|2849| to punish
|5083| reserved

The word there in question (2849) is kolazo {kol-ad'-zo} v 1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings 2) to curb, check, restrain 3) to chastise, correct, punishment 4) to cause to be punished

The tense of this word is an action it is not a state of being word. The word 'being' is not in the original text. It is a verb. 'to punish', 'to cause to be punished', does not equate 'being punished'.

Again, if they are already being punished, it would be rather pointless for Jesus to 'have His reward with Him' and for the 'dead both small and great' to be resurrected to be judged according to their works, and THEN be punished again.

The point is, if you think that the 'reward' is eternity in hell, then when you think that the wicked are ALREADY in hell, then they are ALREADY getting their reward.

I agree with none of that. They aren't in torment. They haven't received their reward. They are reserved, for judgement, to be punished. Kept somewhere *safe* waiting for the judgement.

Just because it is said that way in another translation, doesn't mean it was in the original text. I am always careful when reading ANY version, to see what the original text said. You never know what the original said, unless you look, and this isn't the first time the 'translations' have conflicted with the original.

God Bless.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

(Eph 2:1 KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
--They were dead. How? In their spirits. Christ made them alive when they received Him as Saviour.

Simple. You were alive before you sinned. Rules out original sin here. The Holy Spirit is in a child until they sin willfully. Then, like Paul says: Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. He was ALIVE without the law. So when He KNEW that it was sin, and did it anyway, HE DIED. He was spiritually dead, because He was then without the Holy Spirit. He didn't physically die, and it wasn't 'his ghost' that died. Otherwise (according to your tripartite theory) how could he have still been a man?
</font>[/QUOTE]"The Holy Spirit is in a child until they sin willfully."

How do you reconcile this belief with the Scripture:

Psam 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Psalm 58:3 Firstly we know, by David's language that this is figurative, becuase surely no one thinks that a baby is capable of speaking, as soon as they are born. I think this is a hindsight statement. Viewing the wicked in the light of the life they lived, that NOTHING they ever did was just, because of all the sin they did commit. That from the day they were born, until now, they have no record of righteousness, only sin.

Psalm 51:5 sounds like he is talking about a woman who conceived a child through fornication. He was shapen in iniquity, and conceived in the sin of HIS MOTHER. NOT HIM.

But then, I could just say what you would say:

This is just poetry, you can't draw any doctrinal signifigance from it

God Bless.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> You say you aren't building a doctrine, but it seems like DHK is, so I thought you were.

I am not speaking for DHK and I thought you were specifically talking to me. We were looking at the passage of I Peter 3:18-20 and I am saying I am not building a doctrine with it. However, you don't need just this one verse to build a doctrine of everlasting separation and torment.

Actually, I wanted you to focus on some key phrases in Mark 9:42-50.

43 .., to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
44 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
45 ..to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
46 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
47 ..to be cast into hell fire
48 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

It seems clear that the hell fire burns forever. So there is the answer to your question starting this thread.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]I did address it:

The fire will not be quenched, or put out. The fire will burn until all that are in it are consumed, and with the absence of fuel, it will go out.

It may not be what you wanted, but there isn't really much more to it than that. It says it won't be quenched. That means nothing will put it out. That doesn't mean it won't go out. The only time I have heard of a fire burning and not burning up what was in it is the burning bush. However the things in the Bible that are compared to the 'fire' that will destroy the wicked, are things like Sodom and Gomorrah, who suffered eternal fire. Are those cities still burning?

God Bless.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

However the things in the Bible that are compared to the 'fire' that will destroy the wicked, are things like Sodom and Gomorrah, who suffered eternal fire. Are those cities still burning?

God Bless.

Yes, the inhabitants of those cities are still burning.

 

[neal4christ]

The tense of this word is an action it is not a state of being word. The word 'being' is not in the original text. It is a verb. 'to punish', 'to cause to be punished', does not equate 'being punished'.

Did you ever think of it being a present passive middle participle? That means the action is presently being done to the ones it is referring to. Therfore you get "being punished". Presently occuring to the the ones being held. You really should look at what the verb form really is.

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

It may not be what you wanted, but there isn't really much more to it than that. It says it won't be quenched. That means nothing will put it out. That doesn't mean it won't go out.

What about the worms never dying? Do they really die once the food is gone?

Neal

 

[BobRyan]

The truth is "nobody teaches a belief in immortal worms".

So "they change it" to say "the worm is a way of speaking of the human soul". However that blows the entire analogy of worms feeding on the refuse heap. (Unless we are saying that lost souls are consuming rotted flesh).

To stay WITH the illustration Christ gives - the worm is consuming the corpse and the fire is consuming the wicked. The implication of the worm that never quits and the fire that can not be stopped - is that these consuming processes will SURELY consume what they touch and nothing can turn them back.

It is not meant to convey "immortality of worms" the way some prefer to read it, neither does the consuming action of the worms represent "the lost human soul".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It may not be what you wanted, but there isn't really much more to it than that. It says it won't be quenched. That means nothing will put it out. That doesn't mean it won't go out.

What about the worms never dying? Do they really die once the food is gone?

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]I'm pretty sure that the 'worms' here are figurative, unless the worms are granted immortality TOO!!

NO, Seriously, the place that Jesus is talking about is NOT the lake of fire. I can't stress that enough. It is Gehenah, the city dump, the place where THEIVES, RAPISTS, ADULTERERS, etc. Were thrown. You know, sins done with hands, feet, eyes. The application of the word Gehenna to mean 'hell' or the lake of fire, was not done by God.

God Bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Neal
What of 2 Peter 2:9-10? Does this not speak of some sort of punishment until the day of judgement? Are the asleep, unconcious?

No reference is made to anyone who is "asleep" being "punished" while sleeping in 2Peter 2. Nor do we see the actions of those who are being reserved for judgment being the actions of someone who is asleep - or someone who is dead.

When you seem to be calling for the "conscious - sleepers" you know you have gotten something out of context.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Neal says

Actually, I wanted you to focus on some key phrases in Mark 9:42-50.

43 .., to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
44 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
45 ..to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
46 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
47 ..to be cast into hell fire
48 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

It seems clear that the hell fire burns forever. So there is the answer to your question starting this thread.


In fact the statement points to a consuming destructive process that is unstoppable. But you have inserted a statement that is not found in the text - specifically "hell fire burns forever" - which is not the same thing as "hell fire can not be stopped" or "hell fire can not be put out". If a fire burns a house and can not be put out it will burn the house to the very end but once the house is burned - the fire ends having nothing left to burn - but it is not "put out" it is not "quenched".

So the idea is to get some eternal material that can never be "consumed" then have the fire try to consume something - try to burn something - that can not be burned - that can not be consumed. NOW you have fire that burns forever. The problem is the text does not describe the MATERIAL is being unburnable with a fire that seeks to burn - seeks to consume - seeks to destroy --- what CAN NOT be consumed, burned, destroyed. Yet that is the sense that many views "need" to read into the text.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

According to the infallible Word of God - a good example of something being destroyed by "eternal fire" -- is Sodom and Gomorrah. Jude 7.

It is left as an exercise for the reader to determine if that shows "indestructable cities that are being afflicted with a very determined eternal fire" -- OR if it means that an "Eternal Fire - whose source is the Eternal God - that CONSUMES a destructable city" and none can stop it.

In Christ,

Bob

[ January 31, 2003, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
According to the infallible Word of God - a good example of something being destroyed by "eternal fire" -- is Sodom and Gomorrah. Jude 7.

It is left as an exercise for the reader to determine if that shows "industructable cities that are being afflicted with a very determined eternal fire" -- OR if it means that an "Eternal Fire - whose source is the Eternal God - that CONSUMES a destructable city" and none can stop it.

Matthew 11:23,24,
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

It will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment.

Is God going to raise up the surroundin land of Sodom, the physical rivers, grassland, mountains, and the buildings of the city itself? Is this what is meant by the "land of Sodom?"
Why would the "land of Sodom" appear at the day of Judgement?
Why and how will be more tolerable for Sodom in the day of Judgement than it will be for Capernaum?
"And thou Capernaum," Jesus says. Will the actual physical city of Capernaum, buildings and all appear in judgement before God? Will God resurrect this physical city in the Day of Judgement? Is this what He is saying?

It is clear that the name of city has two meanings: one, it refers to the physical city itself, and two, it refers to the inhabitants of the city as it does in these verses. In the day of Judgment it will be more tolerable for the inhabitants of Sodom than it will for the inhabitants of Capernaum, for they saw the mighty works of Christ and believed not. Nevertheless, until that Day of Judgement comes, all who did not repent and believe in Christ will still be in Hell today, suffering its torments.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

In Rev 20 the Lake of fire is "located" -- "ON the broad plain of the Earth" 20:9.


"As it turns out" the Cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were "on earth".

As it turns out - they were destroyed WHILE on earth.

As it turns out Jude 7 THEIR destruction by Fire - by fire that comes down out of heaven from God - IS in fact an example IN history of "destruction by Eternal Fire" Jude 7.

There is unfortunately - no escaping that fact.

Even the Mention that Christ makes of ANOTHER future destruction of the people of Soddom and Gomorrah - can not negate the force of the text in Jude 7 where NOT ONLY do we see a PEOPLE destroyed by "eternal fire" but ALSO their geographical community. The case is devastating to the "eternal fire means FIRE that will always be there forever burning what can not be consumed".

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
In Rev 20 the Lake of fire is "located" -- "ON the broad plain of the Earth" 20:9.

Your joking right?!

Rev.20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

How can the Lake of Fire be on earth when the earth and the heaven flee away, and there is found no place for them!!!
From verse 11 onward, where John says, "And I saw," what he sees is a Heavenly scene. The Great White Throne Judgement takes place in Heaven. The Lake of Fire is in an undisclosed place, like Hell, where only God knows the location.

"As it turns out" the Cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were "on earth".

Of course they were on earth.

As it turns out - they were destroyed WHILE on earth.
As it turns out Jude 7 THEIR destruction by Fire - by fire that comes down out of heaven from God - IS in fact an example IN history of "destruction by Eternal Fire" Jude 7.

So? It was a fire that came down and destroyed these two cities, and their inhabitants. Their inhabitants will remain in an eternal fire--in fire that burns eternally. And they also will burn eternally.

There is unfortunately - no escaping that fact.
Even the Mention that Christ makes of ANOTHER future destruction of the people of Soddom and Gomorrah - can not negate the force of the text in Jude 7 where NOT ONLY do we see a PEOPLE destroyed by "eternal fire" but ALSO their geographical community. The case is devastating to the "eternal fire means FIRE that will always be there forever burning what can not be consumed".

When God destroys a city by fire it burns as the city burned to ashes. The spirit cannot burn. The spirits of those of Sodom and Gomorroh are in Hell today. At the resurrection they will receive their resurrected bodies--changed bodies. They will also receive their final sentence--body, soul and spirit will be cast into the Lake of Fire. And just like in Rev. 20:10, where "the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever," so shall they, for they do not have their names in the Book of life (Rev.20:15), and thus will suffer the same fate.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 10:28 "Fear Him who IS ABLE to DESTROY BOTH body AND SOUL in hell fire".

The text does not say "The Soul can not burn so God tries to destroy it by hell fire and hell fire just burns forever trying to destroy what it CAN NOT since the soul can not burn".

Neither do you find in Rev 14:10 or Rev 20 "the spirit can not burn so nothing the lake of fire does has any affect - but it keepys TRYING to burn what can not be burned and does so for all eternity".

Some argue "no He can not! The Soul CAN not burn - only the body can burn. God IS NOT ABLE to DESTROY BOTH body and SOUL in hell fire - just the BODY".

I feel for those who are forced to make such argumentst in an effort to support their traditions. It is a "difficult case" to make.

And as for the "Eternal Fire" PUNISHMENT of Sodom and Gomorrah not being taken literally as true - I think that is a problem to argue that it should be be taken as really true - as well.

I also think that Rev 14:10 is literally true when it shows ALL that destruction taking place "IN the Presence of the LAMB and of His saints".

The entire picture - shows the meaning very clearly. But if we have to go to each one of those areas and say "NOT really true" to each one then -- we have problems.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

Neither do you find in Rev 14:10 or Rev 20 "the spirit can not burn so nothing the lake of fire does has any affect - but it keepys TRYING to burn what can not be burned and does so for all eternity".

I don't have a problem with any of the verses that you mention. It is you that has the problem of explaining away literally hundreds of references which speak of eternal destiny of the wicked.

Rev.14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Your problem here is to differentiate between verse 10 and 11. Verse 10 is sspeaking of the judgement of God that is poured out on the earth in the presence of God and His angels. It is God's wrath upon a wicked world during the Tribulation Period. It is a just and righteous wrath.

Verse 11 tells us the result of that wrath. It does not imply that those in Heaven will be looking at it forever. This is what is going to happen to all those who worship the beast and have his mark. They will be tormented day and night. They will have no rest. It is you that has a problem here, not I. This is the Lake of Fire, and this is exactly what will happen--to all the reject Christ as Saviour.
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

I'm pretty sure that the 'worms' here are figurative

So let's see, it is figurative when it supports your theology and not when it doesn't. Ah, I see! The double standard is so clear now!

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I'm pretty sure that the 'worms' here are figurative

So let's see, it is figurative when it supports your theology and not when it doesn't. Ah, I see! The double standard is so clear now!

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]No, the figurative label is applied where the Bible is being figurative. Since 'worms' cannot live through fire, we must come to the conclusion that either it was translated wrong, or it is figurative.

And you failed to answer the question. Are the worms 'immortal' worms?

The 'worm' there is the kind that feeds off of dead bodies. (There is also mention of 'birds' feeding on the bodies of the dead wicked, although that is referring to those who were killed by the brightness of His coming {I think}).

The worm 'dieth not'. In the greek:

|3699| where
|3588| the
|4663| worm
|0846| of them
|3756| not
|5053| has an end,
|2532| and
|3588| the
|4442| fire
|3756| not
|4570| is quenched.

5053 teleutao {tel-yoo-tah'-o} 1) to finish, bring to and end, close 2) to have an end or close, come to an end

It doesn't actually say that they don't die. It says that they will not finish, or be brought to an end. It is figurative here. The worms will never run out of food. There will always be something to eat. Again, this is speaking of Gehenna. The fire was not put out. The worms never came to the end. (of the pile)

Jesus knew the wickedness of man, and that as long as there was sin, there would be 'food' and 'fuel' for the worms and fire.

God Bless.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Revelations is not a chronological book. It is not in the 'order' in which it is going to happen.

Rev.14:10

Y----The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
X----and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
X----And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
Y----and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The topic of the Y's are about before the 2nd Coming during the 7 Bowl judgements, the topic of the X's are after the Millenium.


Y----The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
Y----and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
X----and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
X----11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

This passage is an example of a complex chiasm in an antithetical parallel, of an antiphonal grouping.

We see the same patterns in the OT as well.

Daniel 9:25-27.

Y----Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
Z----the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Y----And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
Z----and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Y----And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
Z----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Again the Y's with the Y's and the Z's with the Z's:

Y----Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
Y----And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
Y----And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Z----the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Z----and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Z----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Y----Jesus
Z----Desolator/antichrist

These passages are a prime example of antithetical parrallels in an antiphonal grouping.

And just think, I am blonde

God Bless.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Don't tell me I actually stumped someone.