What must one do to be saved???

DHK · Aug 24, 2002

Originally posted by Carson Weber:

"Born again" is one of two translations of the Greek "anothen" (a transliteration into English). The other translation is "From above". "Anothen" is a Greek word with a double meaning.

Nowhere in John 3 do we see a reference to "accepting Jesus Christ into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior". Now, I do see a reference to being born from above by the Spirit, and this evokes the image of the Spirit descending from above at Jesus' baptism in the first chapter.

I also notice that the very next thing Jesus does after his discourse with Nicodemus is to join his disciples in a little fun activity that involves water.

I agree with most of which you say. It is not a reference to accepting Jesus as your Saviour here. However, to be fair, neither is their a reference to Jesus baptism either. The chronological events of history do not interpret the theological suppositions being set forth. Christ said you must be born again. That is a necessity if you are to enter into the kingdom of God. You must be born again. The fact that in the chronology of events there was baptism some time later, has no bearing on the interpretation of "you must be born again."

As you say, one must be born from above, born of the Spirit, i.e., the Holy Spirit. What does the water refer to?

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Water is symbolic for the Word. Water cleanses as does the Word. You must be born again! How? 1Pet.1:23 says it is through the Word of God. The obvious conclusion then, is that the water in John 3:5 represents the Word of God.
DHK

Frank · Aug 25, 2002

DHK:
In all matters of faith complete obedience is necessary. Which commandment can you disobey and be saved? And how do you know which one? The context of Romans 6 is speaking to the practice or bondage of sin and vs 1,2 to those already saved. However, new creatures are new all old things have passed away. Our sins of the past are not brought to our account. Romans 6:3-5 Hebrews 8:12.
Furthermore, the text still reads we have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered you and being made free form sin ye became the ervants of righteousness. Can one be saved without obeying that form of doctrine delivered you. Romans 6:3-5 gets one into Christ. I Peter 3:21 still reads baptism doth also now save us. I have also quoted the whole thing many times and it still reads the same way as it did when it was quoted in it's entirety. It is the form of doctrine delivered and saves. It begats one as a new creature. James 1:18,21 II Cor. 5:17. Romans 6:1,2 and following also teaches those who have obeyed should continue to serve that which is right.

SolaScriptura · Aug 25, 2002

Here's a rather interesting take:

381 AD Ambrose of Milan "Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and-the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75-76]).

I must disagree with his first statment "Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit" for the baptism of the Spirit in scripture is always followed by speaking in tongues (Acts 2, Acts 10) and there is one baptism (Eph 4:5) which is that of water. (1 Peter 3:21)

Even so, the rest of what he says in the quote above is very much in line with Romans 6 and correct. We die in the water and are resurrected by the Spirit (although I wouldn't call this resurrection by the Spirit a baptism in the Spirit).

Another interesting take:

382 AD Gregory of Nyssa "[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the first-born of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit" (Against Eunomius 2:8).

Perhaps he goes too far here (and probably does), but the connection between the descent of the Holy Spirit onto Christ at His baptism and Christ's words "ye must be born [again] of water and the spirit" is very striking, is it not?

345 AD CYRIL "When going down, therefore, into the water, think not of the bare element, but look for salvation by the power of the Holy Ghost: for without both thou canst not possibly be made perfect. It is not I that say this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter: for He saith, 'Except a man be born anew' (and he adds the words) 'of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' (Cyril of Jerusalem, "Catechetical Lectures," Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 15.)

And I can't leave Justin out:

"And for this [the purpose of baptism] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed..." (Justin Martyr, "First Apology," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 183)

Justin obviously understood Peter's phrase "For the remission of sins" in Acts 2:38 as "in order to obtain" because he says "may obtain in the water the remission."

PS: There's something for everone here! A good explanation of why baptism "doth also now save us" (1 Peter 3:21) for Baptists and a good explanation of why baptism is by immersion only (from Ambrose) and why infants cannot be baptized (from Justin) for Catholics.

[ August 25, 2002, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

DHK · Aug 25, 2002

Originally posted by Frank:
DHK:
In all matters of faith complete obedience is necessary.

Complete obedience, Frank? This shows your lack of understanding in soteriological matters. At no time did Christ ever command complete or perfect obedience. That is the law. He died to remove the curse of the law. If you were to keep all the law and yet offend in just one point you would be just as guilty as if you had broken every one of the laws (James 2:10).
As it stands your statement has put you in grave theological error, calling Jesus Christ a liar!

1John 1:8,10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
DHK

lookbeyond · Aug 26, 2002

No one has yet explained what are we saved from??? All of this dialogue here presented is interesting, but lacks substance without knowing what we are being saved from! It is critical in understanding the Word of God, that we understand this very important basic doctrine! And the understanding begins in the Garden of Eden! If we don't accept that account of man's beginning then we have no basis for understanding what we are being saved from.....or saved for........! Christ died that all might not come under the sin of Adam & Eve. In other words....though we all die and our bodies are placed in the grave, the atonement of Christ provides the free gift of resurrection from the grave, our bodies reunited with our spirits....never to die again! We are saved from the grave, a free gift from God, through His Son Jesus Christ! The spiritual separation of man from God because of transgression can only be conquered and overcome by following Jesus Christ, and His teachings which are critical to the rewards that will be granted upon the day of judgement when we all will stand before God and give an accounting of this life and our choices made...Jesus Christ will judge us according to our works, and reward us accordingly, and an assignment into a "mansion" or "glory" will be made. The scriptures say, "except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven." This is a requirement that requires obedience. It requires first faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sin! It requires that we make changes in our lives if they are out of harmony with His teachings! (repentance) And after baptism comes the forgiveness of sin, based upon our faithfulness....and receipt of the Gift of the Holy Ghost into our lives as a constant guide and Comforter who will lead us into all truth and keep us in the path that leads back to the presence of the Father! Our spiritual death, separation from the Father & Son, that ocurred in the Garden, when Adam & Eve having become mortal, were cast out of the Garden, and the presence of Diety; is conquered by our obedience to the teachings of the Savior! The vicarious sacrifice for sin by Jesus Christ redeemed us ALL from the consequences of the physical death....A FREE GIFT! We through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ have the power given us to conquer the spiritual death and receive the rewards attributed to the degree of our obedience, through the mercy and grace of God! If we learn to live by the example and teachings of Jesus, we will not have to suffer for our sins as He suffered! 1 Cor. 3:8 "Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour." Heb.11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Frank · Aug 26, 2002

dhk:
According to the The word of God, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all them that OBEY him. Hebs. 5:8,9.

People are saved from sin by OBEYING that form of doctrine delivered them. Romans 6;17-19.

Man is purified when he OBEYS the truth through the Spirit. I Pet. 1:22.

Jesus made OBEDIENCE a requirement. John 3:36, Mat. 7:21-24, Luke 6:46, Rev. 22:12-14.

If this is not true, which commandment may you disobey and be saved? and how do you know which one? Please respond with the Book, Chapter, and Verse for the above questions.

DHK · Aug 26, 2002

Originally posted by Frank:
dhk:
According to the The word of God, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all them that OBEY him. Hebs. 5:8,9.

People are saved from sin by OBEYING that form of doctrine delivered them. Romans 6;17-19.

Man is purified when he OBEYS the truth through the Spirit. I Pet. 1:22.

Jesus made OBEDIENCE a requirement. John 3:36, Mat. 7:21-24, Luke 6:46, Rev. 22:12-14.

If this is not true, which commandment may you disobey and be saved? and how do you know which one? Please respond with the Book, Chapter, and Verse for the above questions.

Obedience, in each case cited, comes from believing on Christ; trusting Him as your Saviour.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Just as at the beginning of salvation, where one is saved by faith alone, all throughout the Christian life, one's Christian walk is a walk of faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. We are saved by faith and faith alone. We walk by faith. We live by faith. If you don't perhaps you are not a Christian in the Biblical sense of the word. By faith a person is born again, and adopted into the family of God. There is not a single good work that you can do without faith. But initially that faith must be in Christ, otherwise there is no salvation. Salvation is by faith and by faith alone. If you add anything to it, you take away from the grace of God and the blood of Christ.
If you say you must be perfect you make Jesus Christ a liar and the truth is not in you. Your argument is not with me it is with God. I just present to you what the Scriptures say.
DHK

[ August 26, 2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

lookbeyond · Aug 26, 2002

DHK, what is faith? How does it differ from belief?

DHK · Aug 27, 2002

Originally posted by lookbeyond:
DHK, what is faith? How does it differ from belief?

FAITH: pistiV pistis pis'-tis
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

BELIEVE: pisteuw pisteuo pist-yoo'-o
from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication,
to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust
with.

As you can see from the above definitions from Strong's Greek Dictionary, the meanings of the two words are related and similar, perhaps even synonymous.
To have faith is to have confidence, or as it says to be persuaded.

Romans 4:20-22
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
--Abraham was strong in faith. He was fully persuaded; fully confident that what God had promised He was going to do. That is faith. How does faith come?

Rom.10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
---The more time you spend in God's Word, getting to know God Himself, the more confident you will become that God will keep His promises. Christianity is a relationship, not a religion. If I never spend time with my spouse how will I get to know her? If I never spend time with Christ (through His Word and prayer), how will I ever get to know him? The more time I spend, the greater faith I am able to put into Him and His promises.

But the difference between faith and belief (if there be any) is meaningless, if one does not know Christ as Saviour. To know Christ as Saviour is to put your faith or trust in Him as the one and only God and Saviour of this world, who died for your sins, and for the sins of the world.
DHK

Frank · Aug 27, 2002

Lookbeyond:
Belief is the action verb of faith. When Jesus said to the disciples they must believe on him whom he hath sent. he implied faithful obedience to his word. Mat. 7:21-24. Belief in John 6:28,29 is connected with action, not disconnected.
In short, faith is a noun and belief is the verb.
When one accepts evidence he has faith formed by the evidence. John 20:30,31, Romans 10:17. This brings action or belief that is obedient. This is true when Biblical belief is in view. CF. John 12:42,44, James 2:19. By definition, when one contemplates evidence he is actually working. Hebrews 11:6.

Frank · Aug 27, 2002

DHK:
Which commandment may we disobey and be saved? And how do you I know?
By the way John 6:28,29, requires on act based on evidence,this is what Biblical belief is. It is a work of God that WE MUST DO. In verse 28, Jesus said, this is the WORK of GOD( now here is what you must do) that you believe on him whom he hath sent. It is God's work that man must do.

DHK · Aug 27, 2002

Originally posted by Frank:
DHK:
Which commandment may we disobey and be saved? And how do you I know?
By the way John 6:28,29, requires on act based on evidence,this is what Biblical belief is. It is a work of God that WE MUST DO. In verse 28, Jesus said, this is the WORK of GOD( now here is what you must do) that you believe on him whom he hath sent. It is God's work that man must do.

Frank, are you sinless? Have you made Jesus Christ a liar (1John 1:10)?
DHK

Frank · Aug 27, 2002

DHK:
All sin and come short of the glory of God. This still does not eliminate the standard of obedience required.LUKE 6:46. The Bible says, " Therefore to him that knoweth to do good and do it not to him it is sin." Sin is caused by transgression of God's Law. I Jn 3:4. It is the failure to do as God has directed. If one fails to obey then he must repent, I John 1:5-7. Then, the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. Complete obedience does not mean flawless perfection. The word perfect in the Bible means complete. Cf.II Tim. 3:17,Mat. 5:48;19:21,II Cor. 12:9,Eph. 4:12.
Which commandment may we disobey and be saved? And how do we know which one(s)?

DHK · Aug 27, 2002

Originally posted by Frank:
DHK:Which commandment may we disobey and be saved? And how do we know which one(s)?

Which commandment must I OBEY to be saved:

Acts 16:30,31:
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The only requirement was to believe.
DHK

Robert Nicholson · Aug 27, 2002

Dear friends:

Why do we try and make salvation so difficult?

The work is all of God through Christ. "You hath he made alive quickened who were dead in tresspassess and in sin" Eph. 2:1

What are we saved from?

a) we are saved from the guilt and penalty of sin.
b) we are saved on a daily basis from the dominion and power of sin.
c) we will be saved from the presence of sin when Christ comes.

Why does God want to save us?

a) He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Most importantly John 17:3 Jesus said " that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."

God wants a personal relationship with us through his Son. He desires to know us and for us to know him.

How do we get saved?

"For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast."

It is God who by his grace sent his Son to die on the cross, providing a way whereby he could forgive lost sinners. It is God by his Spirit who speaks to lost sinners and convicts them of their need and reveals to them the truth of the gospel. Eternal life becomes the present possession for all who place faith or believe in the work which Christ finished on the cross.

Paul wrote these words "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." 1 Tim. 1:15

The Lord Jesus Christ is worthy of our trust. His work on the cross cost him to suffer beyond comprehension for our sins and to lay down his life; that we who could not help ourselves might know our sins forgiven and have eternal life.

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain"

Robert

Frank · Aug 27, 2002

dhk:
You got out of the jailhouse too soon. In Acts 16:33, they were baptized the same hour of the night. Jesus said," He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned. Acts 2:38 conjoins repentance and baptism. The Eunoch of Acts 8 confessed and was baptized. You leave out that which God places together. AND is a coordinating conjunction. AND connects things in likeness. The coordinating conjunction BUT contrasts the first clause from the second.
Which commandment may we disobey and be saved? And how do you know? Those of John 12:42,44 believed but would not confess him. Were they saved? If not, why not? And how do you know?

ChristianCynic · Aug 27, 2002

Jesus said," He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Why did He not say, "He that believes not or is not baptized shall be damned"?

And immediately following these words, what are the "signs of them that believe?"

Acts 2:38 conjoins repentance and baptism.

And in what name is one to be baptized, according to Acts 2:38?

Frank · Aug 28, 2002

Cynic:
It does not matter what he did not say. He did not say a number of things in this passage. However, what he did say was that belief and baptism are connected. The coordinating conjunction and makes this clear. Moreover, the cocordinating conjucntion BUT contrast the first phrase with the second. But makes them DISSIMILAR where as AND links two things in likeness. This is what the 8th grade english teachers on my hall tell me about the English language.
Again,in Acts 2:38 the coordinating conjunction AND connects the two ( Repentance and baptism)as elements that are similar or are in likeness in the meaning of the passage. These words were authorized by Jesus Christ who has all authority. Mat. 28:18. It is Christ who has proclaimed the conditions of salvation.Acts 4:12. There is no other name that has the power or authority to grant forgivenenss. Mark 2:8-11, John 20:23.
As for why Jesus did not say he that is baptized not, I would not venture to guess. However, had he done as you have asked, he would have engaged himself in what grammarians call redundnacy. In other words, the contrast of the conjunction BUT makes the second phrase dissimilar if it is not exactly the same as the first.
One could also say one shall be condemend if he is baptized and does not believe. If the two ideas are disconnected in any way they are in contrast,therefore, the use of the contrasting conjunction BUT.Thus, to use your phraseology, would be redundant and not make sense in the grammatical construction of the verse. The failure to believe or the failure to be baptized still condemn one as the meaning of the phrase he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved would be contrasted instead of linked together as the conjunction AND demands.

ChristianCynic · Aug 28, 2002

Originally posted by Frank:
It does not matter what he did not say.

Very well. He did not say "Don't become a Catholic." He did not say "Take the bread and wine weekly." He did not say "Have a convention at Antioch." So whether any does or does not do these things "does not matter." Got it.

This is what the 8th grade english teachers on my hall tell me about the English language.

Are you already in the 8th grade? Good going, boy.

However, had he done as you have asked, he would have engaged himself in what grammarians call redundnacy.

Now where in the world would you have learned anything about redundancy?

If the two ideas are disconnected in any way they are in contrast

Alright-- so to believe is to be baptized, and to be baptized is to believe. Otherwise, if they have the slightest difference of anhy meaning whatsoever, then they are "disconnected."

Anyway, the question holds: If a person truly believes in the gospel of Christ, and is then on his way to the baptistry [even though no NT passage says to build baptistries or even churches] and a sniper pops up and shoot him to death, does he spend eternity damned to hell because he was not baptized? If baptism is a requirement for salvation, the answer is 'Yes, absolutely.' If the answer is anything less than a definite Yes, then baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

Now, are you going to continue to be a coward, or are you going to answer the quetion previously asked.... In what name did Peter say to be baptized in Acts 2:38, and were you baptized in that name? Do you show the signs of "them that believe" as Jesus said in Mark 16:17-18, or are yo not among "them that believe?"

Frank · Aug 28, 2002

Cynic:
1. My comments about what was not said were in reference to the issue of Mark 16:16. Therefore, your comments about not being a Catholic are, well, irrelevant to the issue. Language works in three and only three ways: One, by Declarative statement. Two, by example. Three, by implication from evidence. Your questioning of Mark 16:16 and why Jesus did not say is baptized not displays your ignorance of the English language.
By the way, RULE THREE IN THE WAY ALL LANGUAGE WORKS, GOD DID SAY by implication from evidence one should NOT TO BE A CATHOLIC. Acts 4:12, Col. 3:17 Mat. 28:18-20, I Cor. 4:6, Isaiah 42:8.

If a man dies on the way to the hospital before he believes is he saved? How do you know? If he dies before he repents is he saved? How do you know? If he dies before he confesses is he saved? Again, how do you know? If yes, book chapter and verse please. You got the same problem as the man that claims one can pray the sinners prayer and be saved. His problem " Ther ain't no scripture fer it."

I have aleady answered the question from Acts 2:38 one is baptized by the authority of Jesus Christ.

As for your question about signs following, the promise was not made to me, but the apostles. John 14:16;15:26;16:13, Luke 24:46-50, Acts 1:7,8; 2:1-4,17,38. The power to perform miracles was for the apostles and on those who they laid hands. See Acts 8:17,18. Signs were to confirm the word see Mark 16:20.I have the complete all sufficient word that has already been confirmed.II Tim. 3:16,17.

You have proven two things. One, you do not know English grammar. Two, you do not know much about salvation or the miracles given by the promise and power of Christ through the Holy Spirit.

As for your comment about the eighth grade, they do offer remedial classes for those who do not meet the standards for competency in English grammar! If you would like,I will schedule the class for you.

What must one do to be saved???

<b>Moderator</b>

New Member

New Member

<b>Moderator</b>

lookbeyond

Guest

New Member

<b>Moderator</b>

lookbeyond

Guest

<b>Moderator</b>

New Member

New Member

<b>Moderator</b>

New Member

<b>Moderator</b>

New Member

New Member

<img src=/cc2.jpg>

New Member

<img src=/cc2.jpg>

New Member