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But, I have affirmed the premise that God's both knows all things and is never mistaken. I have only rejected the premise that such knowledge comes by way of God existing at some point in the past while looking into the future to see what will come to pass. I believe His knowledge isn't...

Well, obviously what God sees/knows is what is, but because He knows it to be in no way dictates His predetermination of it (as if it is some future yet to be realized to God). Its only when you limit God to the linear foresight construct that this dilemma even exists. God knows that I'll type...

I agree, but that was the commonly accepted belief of that day which Paul was debunking when he wrote 3:10. But you seem to equate that view of righteousness (which is indeed unattainable), which the correct view of righteousness which is attainable. Let me demonstrate it this way: 1...

I agree, but then what is the point of Romans 3:21 if indeed the righteousness which is thought to come by works though the law is just as unattainable as the righteousness which comes by Grace through faith? What does Paul mean in contrasting the righteousness through law in vs. 10 with the...

I agree, but it becomes the issue when some people are drawing hard conclusions based upon HOW they think God sees the future. See my point? I agree and would never argue otherwise. Whoa, now I only baulk here because I'm not sure what you mean when you speak of it being 'set.' Set by whom...

Winman, it doesn't appear you are understanding my view. As I said, I agree that God can infallibly know everything (including who believes and who doesn't) and I don't believe that means He determines it. I disagree that God's knowledge is similar to hindsight, however. I believe it...

God's knows all things, but not in the limited way you seem to think He knows it. (i.e. Back then in time, God foresaw who would and would not believe) I believe that is a limited linear and very finite perspective of an infinitely eternal sovereign being. I agree that your logic makes since...

I think you misunderstand the Corporate View of election if you think it negates God's foreknowledge of all things or if you think it doesn't involve the salvation of individuals. The point I think is a joke is the belief that election is God looking down the corridors of time to see who will...

If I were ignoring you I wouldn't even respond. I'm trying to help you understand my perspective, which I'm not convinced you do based upon how you have replied to me thus far. Maybe if you took the time to restate my view in your own words, then I'd know you understood me? No, its an effort...

My point exactly! Especially those attempting to draw hard a fast conclusions based upon things they can't possibly begin to comprehend. (i.e. if we can't explain a free an independent choice of God's creatures from our finite logical perspective, then God must have determined their choices.)

That is fine. It doesn't matter to my perspective when God planned to save Gentiles by faith, that is irrelevant to this point. Does it help you if I concede that God didn't plan to save the Gentile by faith until after creation? Does that fix your misconception of my views?

Only sometimes? :smilewinkgrin:

What!?! I give up. You still think I believe this is about individuals?!? How else can I explain my perspective to you so that you will understand? When did I ever even imply that? I think from the beginning means just that, 'from the beginning.' God, 'from the beginning' planned on saving...

A Non-Evangelistic Double Predestinarian Hyper Calvinist. ;)

The passage says, "from the beginning," which simply means that God has always planned on saving the Gentile peoples through faith and this teaching is not some 'new doctrine' that Paul is just making up...it has been God's plan 'from the beginning.' You say I'm not answering your question...

That is my point exactly. Your view appears to me to reduce God's knowledge of all things to his knowing the past, like we know the past, his knowing the present, like we know the present, and his knowing the future, like a man with a crystal ball might know the future. I believe it is much...

You are still speaking in linear terms about God, as if He is bound to the same timeline that you and I are bound to. He knows the future because he is the future. He is the great "I AM," not the great "I WILL BE." His knowledge is PRESENT not PAST FIXED or FORESEEN FUTURE FIXED, but PRESENT...

Since the OP and title seem to be purposefully misleading I thought it best to post Roger's actual words for the discerning readers who may frequent this forum: "It seems to me that “God, please save my friend” without qualifications normally means “God, break my friend’s will and force him to...

The best way I know to illustrate my perspective is through a Civil Rights analogy. Please read this with an open mind and with objectivity and I think you will better understand the intent of Paul in passages such as this one: I think the best way to understand this verse from the Corporate...

The first and second comment reveals an un-calculated arrogance...and I'm a little embarrassed for how poorly you would treat another brother...especially one who is so close to you theologically in virtually every point. Heaven forbid I come across this way to others...if I do, I repent...