God's decrees all from the beginning

[psalms109:31]

We can not let down our guard the will of our flesh these evil desires will be here til we shed this wicked flesh and it's evil will, oh God not my will but your will be done. We have to beat to submission and make it our slave freedom can never belong to my will.

 

[HankD]

We can not let down our guard the will of our flesh these evil desires will be here til we shed this wicked flesh and it's evil will, oh God not my will but your will be done. We have to beat to submission and make it our slave freedom can never belong to my will.

John 8

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

HankD​

 

[thomas15]

I'm not going to do the snarky thing with you. Too busy. Revel in your assumed rightness.

Due to past transgressions I'm on *tom's iggy list so he will not see this little comment but out of the 80+ posts on this thread this is clearly the most profound of statements. Gives meaning to life and all that.

 

[psalms109:31]

John 8

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

HankD​

This is why we do not let our will lead us or trust in it to lead us to life, we are trust in the will of God and follow His over our own understanding. I believe in a free agency, not a free will, the will, will continue down the path it wants to. We have to beat it to submission, by following the Spirit found in the word of God, not the will of the flesh the will of man.

Jesus said not His will, but His Fathers will be done and we are to pray, but thy will the Fathers will be done in earth as it is in Heaven.

Romans 7 :
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[HankD]

This is why we do not let our will lead us or trust in it to lead us to life, we are trust in the will of God and follow His over our own understanding. I believe in a free agency, not a free will, the will, will continue down the path it wants to. We have to beat it to submission, by following the Spirit found in the word of God, not the will of the flesh the will of man.

Jesus said not His will, but His Fathers will be done and we are to pray, but thy will the Fathers will be done in earth as it is in Heaven.

Romans 7 :
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Agreed.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.​

HankD

 

[asterisktom]

That's like saying...

John believes in a God whose holiness dictates that he do all things righteously.

But Jack believes in a God who is so holy that he can maintain his holiness while doing all kinds of unrighteousness.

Who is really forcing God into a box?

...

See how silly that reasoning is?

It's like the "God is so sovereign that he is not in control of every thing" thing.

You might as well say that God is so omnipresent that he is not in millions of places in the universe.

You might as well say that God is so omnipotent that needs all kinds of help to move the galaxies and hold atoms together.

When someone comes by and says- No. That's stupid. Words have meanings. If God is omnipotent then he never needs help upholding all things. If God is omnipresent then there is not one square inch of existence which he does not occupy-

Then somebody says- HA!!! See there!!! You try to put God in a box!!! You try to put God in a box!!!!

I believe in a God who is MORE omnipotent and MORE omnipresent than you do!!!

It's utterly ridiculous.


Either God is truly all knowing as it pertains to all things past, present and future or he is not. If he is then the future is settled. Nothing will happen that causes God to say, "Hmmmmph! I didn't plan that!!! That's a shocker!!!"

There is no "God is so all knowing that there are all kinds of things he does not know." That's madness and silly beyond words.

Yes, very good, Luke. These are exactly the lines I was thinking along when I finally ditched my earlier views. Words have meaning. Without them - either words from/about us, or words from/about God - we have no basis of discussion.

And it is indeed ironic that the defense of these qualified "omnis" (neutralized omnis, rather) should be called "putting God in a box".

It is not putting God in a box, but seeing Him in a Book. He has established His own words to us. Whether we call this God-breathed capsule a book or a box, we can be sure that it is unviolable, will not change, cannot be corrupted.

 

[humblethinker]

That's like saying...

John believes in a God whose holiness dictates that he do all things righteously.

But Jack believes in a God who is so holy that he can maintain his holiness while doing all kinds of unrighteousness.

Who is really forcing God into a box?

...

See how silly that reasoning is?

It's like the "God is so sovereign that he is not in control of every thing" thing.

You might as well say that God is so omnipresent that he is not in millions of places in the universe.

You might as well say that God is so omnipotent that needs all kinds of help to move the galaxies and hold atoms together.

When someone comes by and says- No. That's stupid. Words have meanings. If God is omnipotent then he never needs help upholding all things. If God is omnipresent then there is not one square inch of existence which he does not occupy-

Then somebody says- HA!!! See there!!! You try to put God in a box!!! You try to put God in a box!!!!

I believe in a God who is MORE omnipotent and MORE omnipresent than you do!!!

It's utterly ridiculous.


Either God is truly all knowing as it pertains to all things past, present and future or he is not. If he is then the future is settled. Nothing will happen that causes God to say, "Hmmmmph! I didn't plan that!!! That's a shocker!!!"

There is no "God is so all knowing that there are all kinds of things he does not know." That's madness and silly beyond words.

If you would agree that God cannot know ontological possibilities then how is He omnipotent? Maybe you would claim that the idea of an 'ontological possibility' is an impossibility. But then I ask you again, How is He then omnipotent?

Does God know the DNA of unicorns? Why then would he know the future free decisions of his creatures? How would He be genuine in emotions and purported efforts to convince those creatures to believe when He either does not enable (or cause) them to believe or otherwise knows that they will certainly never believe?

The problem is believing that the 'omni' properties, with no qualifications, are a faithful representation of the God of the Bible.

 

[Luke2427]

If you would agree that God cannot know ontological possibilities then how is He omnipotent? Maybe you would claim that the idea of an 'ontological possibility' is an impossibility. But then I ask you again, How is He then omnipotent?

Does God know the DNA of unicorns? Why then would he know the future free decisions of his creatures? How would He be genuine in emotions and purported efforts to convince those creatures to believe when He either does not enable (or cause) them to believe or otherwise knows that they will certainly never believe?

The problem is believing that the 'omni' properties, with no qualifications, are a faithful representation of the God of the Bible.

God knows the future. This is repeatedly revealed throughout the bible.

So let me get this straight. You don't believe in the omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience of God, right?

If so, then you simply do not believe in God, friend.

 

[Skandelon]

God knows the future.

You are still speaking in linear terms about God, as if He is bound to the same timeline that you and I are bound to. He knows the future because he is the future. He is the great "I AM," not the great "I WILL BE." His knowledge is PRESENT not PAST FIXED or FORESEEN FUTURE FIXED, but PRESENT PERFECT in the ETERNAL NOW. Yes, its beyond us, but that's the point. You can't draw hard and fast cause and effect conclusions about such infinite matters, as your system does. We MUST appeal to mystery and move on.

God's knowledge of future is not like our foreseeing what is going to happen, because once we foresee it then it becomes in the past as far as our knowledge of that event goes. So, like our past memories, the future we foresaw is in the past and thus is fixed, and unchanging. How can you presume that is the way God's knowledge works? Because that is what your system is supposing. You are supposing that God's eternal/infinite knowledge of all things is like a man's knowledge of past events and/or his knowledge of foreseen future events, but on what basis do you draw this conclusion? Is God a mere finite being? Can we suppose he is bound by the same constructs that bind us?

You admit His choices must be different than man's choices, yet you seem to think his knowledge of things past, present and future would be like our knowledge of such things. I'm not sure why you would want to limit God in that manner???

 

[percho]

You are still speaking in linear terms about God, as if He is bound to the same timeline that you and I are bound to. He knows the future because he is the future. He is the great "I AM," not the great "I WILL BE." His knowledge is PRESENT not PAST FIXED or FORESEEN FUTURE FIXED, but PRESENT PERFECT in the ETERNAL NOW. Yes, its beyond us, but that's the point. You can't draw hard and fast cause and effect conclusions about such infinite matters, as your system does. We MUST appeal to mystery and move on.

God's knowledge of future is not like our foreseeing what is going to happen, because once we foresee it then it becomes in the past as far as our knowledge of that event goes. So, like our past memories, the future we foresaw is in the past and thus is fixed, and unchanging. How can you presume that is the way God's knowledge works? Because that is what your system is supposing. You are supposing that God's eternal/infinite knowledge of all things is like a man's knowledge of past events and/or his knowledge of foreseen future events, but on what basis do you draw this conclusion? Is God a mere finite being? Can we suppose he is bound by the same constructs that bind us?

You admit His choices must be different than man's choices, yet you seem to think his knowledge of things past, present and future would be like our knowledge of such things. I'm not sure why you would want to limit God in that manner???

I believe I read somewhere that the Hebrew of I Am that I Am really is I will be what I will be.

 

[Luke2427]

You are still speaking in linear terms about God, as if He is bound to the same timeline that you and I are bound to. He knows the future because he is the future. He is the great "I AM," not the great "I WILL BE." His knowledge is PRESENT not PAST FIXED or FORESEEN FUTURE FIXED, but PRESENT PERFECT in the ETERNAL NOW. Yes, its beyond us, but that's the point. You can't draw hard and fast cause and effect conclusions about such infinite matters, as your system does. We MUST appeal to mystery and move on.

God's knowledge of future is not like our foreseeing what is going to happen, because once we foresee it then it becomes in the past as far as our knowledge of that event goes. So, like our past memories, the future we foresaw is in the past and thus is fixed, and unchanging. How can you presume that is the way God's knowledge works? Because that is what your system is supposing. You are supposing that God's eternal/infinite knowledge of all things is like a man's knowledge of past events and/or his knowledge of foreseen future events, but on what basis do you draw this conclusion? Is God a mere finite being? Can we suppose he is bound by the same constructs that bind us?

You admit His choices must be different than man's choices, yet you seem to think his knowledge of things past, present and future would be like our knowledge of such things. I'm not sure why you would want to limit God in that manner???

It is not about God being bound to the same timeline. It is about the fact that God knowledge is in no way INFERIOR to man's knowledge.

Being God he can see things a lot BETTER than we can, but he certainly does not see them LESS clear than we do.

When God gives his prophets visions and dreams, they see a future that is SET. It cannot be altered. It WILL come to pass. God knows it will and enables them to see that it will. The lion that is Greece will rise. The sheaves which are Joseph's brothers WILL bow. God sees "the end FROM THE BEGINNING."

Now God's knowledge can at least do what the knowledge of his prophets can do. And that is see a future that will most assuredly come to pass.

It seems to me that you are saying that because God's knowledge is different than ours, then it is inferior in some ways TURS- at least to those myriads prophets whove seen thousands of future events in maticulous detail which are SET, unalterable and cannot BUT come to pass.

Saying God does not see the future like we do is fine. Saying that that means his knowledge does not see the future in AT LEAST as clear a manner as we do is problematic.

God CAN and DOES see it just like we do while also being able to see it from all kinds of other unimaginable ways too great for us to comprehend.

But your perspective seems to take from him the very ability he gives his prophets- the ability to see a completely fixed and unalterable future.

 

[webdog]

I believe I read somewhere that the Hebrew of I Am that I Am really is I will be what I will be.

...that rendering confines God to time. Besides not one translator has ever translated it that way for a reason. He is I AM.

 

[percho]

...that rendering confines God to time. Besides not one translator has ever translated it that way for a reason. He is I AM.

Think about, I Will Be what I Will Be in the following context:

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am, and I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[Skandelon]

It is not about God being bound to the same timeline. It is about the fact that God knowledge is in no way INFERIOR to man's knowledge.

That is my point exactly. Your view appears to me to reduce God's knowledge of all things to his knowing the past, like we know the past, his knowing the present, like we know the present, and his knowing the future, like a man with a crystal ball might know the future. I believe it is much bigger than that. He is not bound on some past, present and future time line and thus all the 'before/after/cause/effect' conclusions that your system draws are unfounded.

Now God's knowledge can at least do what the knowledge of his prophets can do. And that is see a future that will most assuredly come to pass.

Again, you think my view is lessoning God's abilities, but I'm arguing for just the opposite. God doesn't merely 'see the future that will most assuredly come to pass,' he is experiencing the future as the omnipresent being. His knowledge is not bound by some foresight of what will come to pass because God is not on the timeline so its not a future for him...it just IS, because HE is the I AM. So your construct has no basis on which to draw a hard and fast conclusion (i.e. "God foresaw what would happen so he must have pre-determined it to happen.")

It seems to me that you are saying that because God's knowledge is different than ours, then it is inferior in some ways TURS-

Quite the opposite.

But your perspective seems to take from him the very ability he gives his prophets- the ability to see a completely fixed and unalterable future.

With all respect, brother, it is your view that limits the ability of God's knowledge because your view is the one that insists divine knowledge of all things necessitates a fixed and unalterable future. I think God's knowledge is more powerful than that. I can't explain it, but I don't think His knowledge necessities a determinative future simply because our finite logic suggests there could be no other alternative. God is bigger than our finite logic.

So, really of the two views, yours is the only one doing the limiting. I'm saying, "With God anything is possible," while you seem to argue that, "With God only a fixed determined future is possible."

 

[OldRegular]

It appears to me from reading some of the posts that some folks are getting in over their heads!:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:

 

[Skandelon]

It appears to me from reading some of the posts that some folks are getting in over their heads!:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:

My point exactly! Especially those attempting to draw hard a fast conclusions based upon things they can't possibly begin to comprehend. (i.e. if we can't explain a free an independent choice of God's creatures from our finite logical perspective, then God must have determined their choices.)

 

[Yeshua1]

You are still speaking in linear terms about God, as if He is bound to the same timeline that you and I are bound to. He knows the future because he is the future. He is the great "I AM," not the great "I WILL BE." His knowledge is PRESENT not PAST FIXED or FORESEEN FUTURE FIXED, but PRESENT PERFECT in the ETERNAL NOW. Yes, its beyond us, but that's the point. You can't draw hard and fast cause and effect conclusions about such infinite matters, as your system does. We MUST appeal to mystery and move on.

God's knowledge of future is not like our foreseeing what is going to happen, because once we foresee it then it becomes in the past as far as our knowledge of that event goes. So, like our past memories, the future we foresaw is in the past and thus is fixed, and unchanging. How can you presume that is the way God's knowledge works? Because that is what your system is supposing. You are supposing that God's eternal/infinite knowledge of all things is like a man's knowledge of past events and/or his knowledge of foreseen future events, but on what basis do you draw this conclusion? Is God a mere finite being? Can we suppose he is bound by the same constructs that bind us?

You admit His choices must be different than man's choices, yet you seem to think his knowledge of things past, present and future would be like our knowledge of such things. I'm not sure why you would want to limit God in that manner???

Everything has already happened for God, for He is in the ternal Now, and so he would know all things from beginning to end from our viewpoint in time, as He exists outside of it!

 

[freeatlast]

Everything has already happened for God, for He is in the ternal Now, and so he would know all things from beginning to end from our viewpoint in time, as He exists outside of it!

I am not sure where you get this? Certainly not the bible. Where does scripture teach all things have already happen for God or He lives outside of time? I think many times some preacher says something that sounds astute and we grab hold of it without checking to see if the bible even hints to what has been said. I would be interested in any scripture you can provide.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not sure where you get this? Certainly not the bible. Where does scripture teach all things have already happen for God or He lives outside of time? I think many times some preacher says something that sounds astute and we grab hold of it without checking to see if the bible even hints to what has been said. I would be interested in any scripture you can provide.

father of eternity /Alpha and the Omega, in the beginning of creation, God already was...

God existed forever, before there was time/space/anything else created by him and for him!

 

[asterisktom]

I am not sure where you get this? Certainly not the bible. Where does scripture teach all things have already happen for God or He lives outside of time? I think many times some preacher says something that sounds astute and we grab hold of it without checking to see if the bible even hints to what has been said. I would be interested in any scripture you can provide.

I'm glad you said this about the saying that "God lives outside of time." Agree totally. It should not be overlooked by us that this way of describing God is not found in Scripture. And if God - in the only book we have that tells about Himself - chooses not to describe Himself this way, and often chooses to use time statements, maybe we should do likewise.

To argue to someone that "God is outside of time" is to invite one of two wrong answers: He is, He isn't. The first is not found in Scripture. The second implies that He is somehow not sovereign over time. Best to be silent on things that God is silent on.

To use the phrase makes one seem smart, and has a bullying tendency on disagreers, but we are all merely semi-ignorant children when it comes to the things of God. We'd best stay very close to God's actual words.