God's decrees all from the beginning

[freeatlast]

jesus could self limit himself, by taking on the limitations inherit with a Human body, but can ALl of the Godhead be able to self limit themselves?

The bible never teaches that Jesus "self limited" Himself.

 

[asterisktom]

Two problems with this. One, you have him willing sin...and two, you have God confined to time with your "beginning" phrase.

Other than that, :thumbs: :laugh:

I have a problem with your having problem. I was using biblical language when I spoke of "beginning". You, on the other hand, are not using using a biblical term with your "outside of time".

However God is confined to nothing except (from a logician's view) the "constraints" of His character.

As far as His "willing sin", I had already touched on that. I guess you missed it.

 

[webdog]

I have a problem with your having problem. I was using biblical language when I spoke of "beginning". You, on the other hand, are not using using a biblical term with your "outside of time".

I am using what is known as hermeunetics in describing biblical, figurative language. Let me guess, you also believe He is a literal door as well...

However God is confined to nothing except (from a logician's view) the "constraints" of His character.

that is also a "biblical term"?

As far as His "willing sin", I had already touched on that. I guess you missed it.

I guess so as my reply was to the op.

 

[percho]

The bible never teaches that Jesus "self limited" Himself.

Would you go along with, God in Christ emptied himself?

 

[asterisktom]

I am using what is known as hermeunetics in describing biblical, figurative language. Let me guess, you also believe He is a literal door as well...

that is also a "biblical term"?



I guess so as my reply was to the op.

I'm not going to do the snarky thing with you. Too busy. Revel in your assumed rightness.

 

[freeatlast]

Would you go along with, God in Christ emptied himself?

No. Perhaps you could give some scripture reference as to why you think this.

 

[kyredneck]

I am using what is known as hermeunetics in describing biblical, figurative language. Let me guess, you also believe He is a literal door as well...

that is also a "biblical term"?

I guess so as my reply was to the op.

Like a starling that flies over and takes a poop on the thread...

 

[HankD]

No. Perhaps you could give some scripture reference as to why you think this.

Obviously, I'm not percho, but I'll enter the debate with:

Perhaps this passage comes to mind?

Philippians 2

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.​

Reputation: Greek: kenoo​

Friberg 02904 : Make empty, divest, deprive of power
UBS Grk Dict 03466 : Deprive of power, Lay aside what one possesses
Lidell-Scott 22236 : To empty out, drain
Strongs 2758 : To empty, make empty​

Using that definition, translated as:​

RSV Philippians 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.​

ASV Philippians 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; 8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.​

YLT Philippians 2:7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, 8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross​

Traditionally this is know as The Kenosis or Kenotic Theory.

http://kenosis.info/index.shtml

HankD​

 

[percho]

No. Perhaps you could give some scripture reference as to why you think this.

YLT Phil 2:7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

 

[webdog]

I'm not going to do the snarky thing with you. Too busy. Revel in your assumed rightness.

I replied the way you replied to me. If anything it says more about your posting style. Revel in your determinism.

 

[webdog]

Like a starling that flies over and takes a poop on the thread...

There must be a short pier in ky you can take a nice long stroll on...

 

[kyredneck]

There must be a short pier in ky you can take a nice long stroll on...

Yea, if I lived on Lake Erie, wouldn't matter though, I'd have my fishin' hat on....

 

[percho]

Obviously, I'm not percho, but I'll enter the debate with:

Perhaps this passage comes to mind?

Philippians 2

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.​

Reputation: Greek: kenoo​

Friberg 02904 : Make empty, divest, deprive of power
UBS Grk Dict 03466 : Deprive of power, Lay aside what one possesses
Lidell-Scott 22236 : To empty out, drain
Strongs 2758 : To empty, make empty​

Using that definition, translated as:​

RSV Philippians 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.​

ASV Philippians 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; 8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.​

YLT Philippians 2:7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, 8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross​

Traditionally this is know as The Kenosis or Kenotic Theory.

http://kenosis.info/index.shtml

HankD​

With you on this one, brother. I wouldn't personally call it a theory and believe it would fall into, "God's decrees all from the beginning," in the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. My questions would be how and of what.

In what manner was God self emptied?
What did he empty himself of through Jesus the Christ.

One thing for sure he did not empty himself of in Jesus was being the living speaking God. See Heb 1

 

[kyredneck]

Yes, the event happened in time. After a necessary preparation period.

But the decreeing of it was from eternity past. I'm too lazy right now (too busy actually) to hunt it up now, but there are two or three verses that come to mind. Shall I look for them?

Or maybe someone else knows the ones I am thinking of.

Here's a pertinent one:

http://bible.cc/isaiah/46-10.htm

"Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish."

 

[freeatlast]

Obviously, I'm not percho, but I'll enter the debate with:

Perhaps this passage comes to mind?

Philippians 2

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.​

Reputation: Greek: kenoo​

Friberg 02904 : Make empty, divest, deprive of power
UBS Grk Dict 03466 : Deprive of power, Lay aside what one possesses
Lidell-Scott 22236 : To empty out, drain
Strongs 2758 : To empty, make empty​

Using that definition, translated as:​

RSV Philippians 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.​

ASV Philippians 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; 8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.​

YLT Philippians 2:7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, 8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross​

Traditionally this is know as The Kenosis or Kenotic Theory.

http://kenosis.info/index.shtml

HankD​

Thank you for those verses. So in regards to the question the my answer would be no.

 

[percho]

Thank you for those verses. So in regards to the question the my answer would be no.

Would you go along with, God in his Son Jesus born of woman self empties?

 

[HankD]

As percho has said, the question is of what did He empty Himself?

The original language is clear that He emptied Himself, not completely or totally
but rather He laid aside something.

It's called the kenotic theory because this is a case in which the scripture is not 100% clear as to what was emptied or laid aside.
Perhaps because the clarity left with those who were fluent in the idiom and nuances of koine Greek.

In my asking for wisdom I give this response as to my presumptive answer:

Jesus laid aside His glory (He looked like anyone else, except on the mount of transfiguration).

He also laid aside His perogatives of deity and voluntarily surrendered His will in deference to our father's will.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.​

He did not cease to be God or anything less than God but God come in the flesh, a mortal human being subject to death, surrendered in complete obedience to our Father in heaven.

HankD

 

[freeatlast]

Would you go along with, God in his Son Jesus born of woman self empties?

No not in regards to the discussion. If the word was humbled himself then yes.

 

[Yeshua1]

As percho has said, the question is of what did He empty Himself?

The original language is clear that He emptied Himself, not completely or totally
but rather He laid aside something.

It's called the kenotic theory because this is a case in which the scripture is not 100% clear as to what was emptied or laid aside.
Perhaps because the clarity left with those who were fluent in the idiom and nuances of koine Greek.

In my asking for wisdom I give this response as to my presumptive answer:

Jesus laid aside His glory (He looked like anyone else, except on the mount of transfiguration).

He also laid aside His perogatives of deity and voluntarily surrendered His will in deference to our father's will.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.​

He did not cease to be God or anything less than God but God come in the flesh, a mortal human being subject to death, surrendered in complete obedience to our Father in heaven.

HankD

Limited himself to becoming a flesh and blood man, who lived for the father as we all need to, by being obedient and empowered by the Holy Spirit continually!

 

[freeatlast]

Limited himself to becoming a flesh and blood man, who lived for the father as we all need to, by being obedient and empowered by the Holy Spirit continually!

I think that would be a correct understanding.