God's decrees all from the beginning

[Tom Butler]

It seems to me that the statement you quote can be worded as, "Did it ever occur to you that everything is ever occuring to God?"

If your view of God being so immutable then why wouldn't it be the case that everything is always occurring to God? Including sin, rape, murder, child abuse, etc.

How immutable is God in your view? Can he be in relation 'with' His creation instead of only 'to' his creation? Can He create beings to whom He can genuinely respond?

How is the neoplatonic maximal being different than your view of God?

I'm going to tread carefully here because I could easily get in over my head. Contrary to what my children and grandchildren think, I really don't know everything.

I like Chuck Blair's little saying better than the one you suggest. Mainly because I understand the implications related to God's immutability. I'm going to have to think about the implications of yours.

Not only that, brother, but I'm a little intimidated by people who cite the neoplatonic maximal. That's another thing my grandkids think I know about that I don't.

 

[freeatlast]

Yes, they are grand statements. I am resting in the grandness of them.

The core assumptions I built my little post on were the omniscience, omnipotence and goodness of God. Do I need to hunt down the many Scriptures for these? I thought these were givens on this board.

The problem is what you hold as to the meaning of those terms as well as how they are applied. Unless there is scripture to back up an assumption the assumption is in vain since anyone can take a word or words and try and make doctrine. May I remind you of the JW's and the Mormons.
Also what you mean by what you state is not clear. Are you saying that He has will every event in all history or just some things?

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm going to tread carefully here because I could easily get in over my head. Contrary to what my children and grandchildren think, I really don't know everything.

I like Chuck Blair's little saying better than the one you suggest. Mainly because I understand the implications related to God's immutability. I'm going to have to think about the implications of yours.

Not only that, brother, but I'm a little intimidated by people who cite the neoplatonic maximal. That's another thing my grandkids think I know about that I don't.

Believe it was CS lewis that postulated that God is eternally in the present "Now" outside of time, so all things known by Him as all happening 'right now' so nothing that would be future/unknown to him!

Also, God in the person Of Jesus upon the Cross identifed personal fashion with ALL the sins everto be done, so he really does "relate" to his creation, being willingly to die in their stead and behalf!

 

[percho]

Everything God willed and decreed He did in the beginning.

How could it have been otherwise? He is not like us, who decide absolutely nothing at our beginning, who need a lifetime of knowing and growing to - hopefully - choose and do the good. His wisdom, power, goodness, love have always been perfect from the beginning.

These - and all the rest of who God is - have always been the basis of all His acts, all of which were decreed before there was anyone else.

Proof verse: Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

 

[percho]

Proof verse: Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

An other: Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

 

[percho]

I believe God does what God does without micromanaging all things yet in the end of it all the ends will have been justified. And here are several verses I believe to support that.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Phil 2:10,11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Eph. 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:

 

[asterisktom]

Tom, I would have added Sovereignty to the three. In my mind the omnipotence of God does not necessarily mean that He exercises that omnipotence.

And Tom I do not believe the attributes you mentioned are a given on this Board though they should be!

Yes, sovereignty could definitely be added to this short list. But I thought, surely, those other three would be something all of us agree on. We apparently agree on those dots - just not that we need to connect them.

 

[asterisktom]

Do you hold that God determined and directly caused all things that veer happened?

or that he causes some, permits others, yet alway sovereign to make all things work together after His own plan and purpose?

Do I believe that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his own plan or purpose?

Yes. It has a familiar ring to it.

But to say God "directly caused something" is to lead into another discussion altogether.

 

[asterisktom]

Proof verse: Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Yes, the event happened in time. After a necessary preparation period.

But the decreeing of it was from eternity past. I'm too lazy right now (too busy actually) to hunt it up now, but there are two or three verses that come to mind. Shall I look for them?

Or maybe someone else knows the ones I am thinking of.

 

[asterisktom]

An other: Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Yes, my point exactly. This is one of the verses that I was thinking of. Another one is in Romans and, I think, 1 Peter.

 

[quantumfaith]

Tom, from your OP, do you then imply or seek to engender discussion, that there are things that were not willed nor decreed by God that have occured, are occurring or will occur?

 

[OldRegular]

An other: Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Isn't it wonderful to be known by and to worship GOD!

 

[asterisktom]

Tom, from your OP, do you then imply or seek to engender discussion, that there are things that were not willed nor decreed by God that have occured, are occurring or will occur?

The main thing I was getting at, QF, was that God does not change His mind as a result of unforeseen events or responses. The original cause for the post was someone (not on this board) speaking about "our ever-changing God".

I am certainly willing to explore other areas, as I have time, but that was the original background for my remarks.

 

[asterisktom]

Isn't it wonderful to be known by and to worship GOD!

This is a basic truth that I have to admit that I forget. Prepping for my Nehemiah piece I came again across a wonderful short phrase; "The Joy of the LORD is your strength."

BTW, (off topic, I know) that phrase is in the context of believers being overly saddened by their awareness of their own sinful shortcomings. I would love to see a good expositional sermon with that passage, having that verse as the assuring centerpiece.

 

[quantumfaith]

The main thing I was getting at, QF, was that God does not change His mind as a result of unforeseen events or responses. The original cause for the post was someone (not on this board) speaking about "our ever-changing God".

I am certainly willing to explore other areas, as I have time, but that was the original background for my remarks.

I would tend to agree with you that God does not change as there is nothing which surprises Him, even in those moments of scripture which seem to indicate that He changed "his mind" or course of action, I would have to say He knew that ahead of "time". Now if someone could PROVE that God changes with respect to what creatures "surprise" him with, the ONLY possibility is that it is the way in which he intended it to be. Personally, that then would (to me) alter the concept of omniscience.

 

[Yeshua1]

I would tend to agree with you that God does not change as there is nothing which surprises Him, even in those moments of scripture which seem to indicate that He changed "his mind" or course of action, I would have to say He knew that ahead of "time". Now if someone could PROVE that God changes with respect to what creatures "surprise" him with, the ONLY possibility is that it is the way in which he intended it to be. Personally, that then would (to me) alter the concept of omniscience.

IF Open theists are correct, and I DONT think they are, wouldn't they be saying God can self limit Himself to NOT know future events , that he would interect in lionear time as we do?

maybe just as Son became a man nd limited Himself, Godhead themselves could choose that?

 

[OldRegular]

IF Open theists are correct, and I DONT think they are, wouldn't they be saying God can self limit Himself to NOT know future events , that he would interect in lionear time as we do?

maybe just as Son became a man nd limited Himself, Godhead themselves could choose that?

The god of open theism is the creation of man and is not the God of the Bible.

 

[freeatlast]

IF Open theists are correct, and I DONT think they are, wouldn't they be saying God can self limit Himself to NOT know future events , that he would interect in lionear time as we do?

maybe just as Son became a man nd limited Himself, Godhead themselves could choose that?

Some do say that.

 

[Yeshua1]

Some do say that.

jesus could self limit himself, by taking on the limitations inherit with a Human body, but can ALl of the Godhead be able to self limit themselves?

 

[webdog]

Everything God willed and decreed He did in the beginning.

How could it have been otherwise? He is not like us, who decide absolutely nothing at our beginning, who need a lifetime of knowing and growing to - hopefully - choose and do the good. His wisdom, power, goodness, love have always been perfect from the beginning.

These - and all the rest of who God is - have always been the basis of all His acts, all of which were decreed before there was anyone else.

Two problems with this. One, you have him willing sin...and two, you have God confined to time with your "beginning" phrase.

Other than that, :thumbs: :laugh: