I thought empty meant,,,,,,well empty.
Empty meaning not really empty is a lot like being a little pregnant.
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God's decrees all from the beginning
- Thread starter asterisktom
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I thought empty meant,,,,,,well empty.
Empty meaning not really empty is a lot like being a little pregnant.
Exactly.
Unfortunately they are not "givens".
Everyone knows that if you do not water down the omni attributes of God that Calvinism absolutely MUST be true.
So, thinking "non-cals" water down the attributes of God and make him less than he is so that they can have a God whose chief end is the free will of man.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So true!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
I thought empty meant,,,,,,well empty.
Empty meaning not really empty is a lot like being a little pregnant.
It does mean empty, but it doesn't necessarily mean forever but could mean temporarily set aside.
What exactly He "emptied" Himself of and the duration thereof is and has been a debtable doctrine.
If one looks at the "kenosis" passage:
Philippians 2
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Jesus made Himself of no "reputation" - that is He emptied Himself of His glory and perogatives of deity and humbled Himself in obedience to the Father (unless of course the Father allowed their use during the days of His flesh).
It does not say that the Father made Him of "no reputation" but that He Himself did it voluntarily being an equal person in the Triune Godhead.
It (kenoo) could mean and I believe that it does mean to put aside in the sense of:
2 Corinthians 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
From then on He depended on His father for all decisions:
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Just before the crucifixion, He had asked His father for restoration:
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
even His restoration was dependent upon the will of His father.
Philippians 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
To exalt means to go from a low position to a higher position.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
HankD
I do not disagree with you. Many however speak as if Christ took back whereas I believe the word teaches he received from the Father. A good example: 1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
My understanding of that is the Father raised, the Father gave, jump to Acts 2:33 where there the Son received from the Father the promise. To me that says the Son received something that he did not have until he received it.
Did the Living, Speaking (Word) Spirit the God (Greek interlinear of John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit) beget in the virgin Mary a man child the Son of God?
Or
Did some second person concept of an eternal God the Son become a man child in the virgin Mary and was born and grew and died but not really died because God can't die so just the 100% man concept body of him died being paid the wages of sin?
See thread, Open for Discussion.
1 Tim 2:5 For one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Is this true of Jesus today or did he revert back to something he had been before the world began?
I would like for Tom and all others to weigh in, being this is his thread.
Just what was decreed from the beginning? The Lamb slain. My son, God will provide Himself a lamb. How? Would he, God beget within a virgin woman one who would be called the Son of the Highest and given the throne of his father David?
Disagreement is not the problem percho. My problem is when the debate ends and insults fly. Then I'm done and back away because it truly is not a debate anymore.
I'm not quite sure what you are asking.
My personal view is that the Logos (the Word), the second person of the Trinity is eternal.
Then in the fulness of time the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
I have no conceptual way of knowing how this can be (not being eternal myself) except to say that in its most primitive scriptural form is what I believe - the word became flesh and dwelt among us.
For the matter of conviction, convenience and a shorthand way of expressing that conviction, I follow after the traditional doctrine of the Hypostatic Union (after due diligence) though not all the details therein are explicitly stated in one place in scripture it is nonethless derived from scripture starting with (the word became flesh and dwelt among us).
David Mathis
http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/what-is-the-hypostatic-union
Yes, it is "traditional" but then so is the Nicean Council view of the Holy Trinity fathered by Athanasius (an Alexandrian church father) which doctrine I also accept as derived from scripture.
The word "Hypostatic" is formed from the word hupostasis which is used in a related passage speaking of the Son - Hebrews 1:3
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
HankD
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I really wish I could wake up right now. This is a very good topic, but it requires careful phrasing and thought. (BTW, I hate that the other thread on this topic was closed just when I had time to really spend on it. I suggest that some threads are closed prematurely.)
About the hypostatic union: There are things about this doctrine that are scriptural, but there also other aspects of it - in another thread I believed I called it the "corollaries", unwarranted corollaries.
And "tradition" is also a term derived from scripture. I believe this scriptural usage of tradition is at play here.
So far, so good. But it is ironic that this term, derived from a passage showing Christ's being the express image of the Father, is all too often used as proof of Christ's remaining forever in the image of man (in human flesh).
It draws upon Scriptural validity of the term to undergird an unscriptural notion - that Christ is right now more than pure spirit.
Returning to the earlier comment of yours, Hank:
Your citation is good, of course. It proves the Incarnation. But it does not prove the eternal duration of Christ's being in the same form. Or being anything other than spirit.
By the same token one could cite "He made Him to be sin who knew no sin" to prove that Christ eternally - God forbid! - is still being "made sin", still doing the work of the Cross.
I need to look at the other thread you mentioned. I kind of zip through these threads as I have time, probably missing that one because of the vague title.
In the sense that people are stilling coming to Christ, then, yes, Christ is still mediator between God and men. But I would say that Paul's usage of the word "man" cannot be stretched too far (or infinitely). He also write to the Galatians that he preaches Christ crucified, portraying it in ongoing terms. (I really need more coffee to express what I need to express here ^_^)
So, yes, Christ - after His temporal and temporary work was done - reverted back to the "glory He had" before He came to our world.
Yes, it's true - when a passage is isolated from context or not compared to other scripture then all sorts of unusual ideas can come forth.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Needs also:
Hebrews 9
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Where are the passages which clearly state that at some point after His death burial and resurrection He shed (got rid of, put aside, whatever) His humanity?
Or, is that the proper way of asking concerning your Christology?
Tom, what do you say? Does Christ retain any of His human attributes at this very moment? It would seem from previous statements that you do not see it that way but is presently as pre-incarnate spirit alone. But I don't want put words in you mouth or make a statement as to your belief.
What was the nature of His post-crucifixion bodily presentations to His disciples and apostles? At what point were those attributes shed (assuming that is the proper way to phrase the question)?
If Christ in the heavenlies has retained none of His material human component(s) what became of the crucified body of Christ?
Thanks
HankD
HankD
psalms109:31
Active Member
Did God degree the evil things we have done as in this desire came from Him or did He decree to use our own wicked desires not His to be used to accomplish His will?
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[That is, the sevenfold Spirit] of God sent out into all the earth.7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign[Some manuscripts they reign] on the earth.”
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Revelation 7 :
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes —who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[Isaiah 49:10]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[Isaiah 49:10]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[Isaiah 25:8]”
Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world[Or written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain].9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.
10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed[Some manuscripts anyone kills] with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”[Jer. 15:2]
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.
Revelation 21 :
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Revelation 22:
Eden Restored
22 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
1 Corinthians 15 :
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[Psalm 8:6] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[That is, the sevenfold Spirit] of God sent out into all the earth.7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign[Some manuscripts they reign] on the earth.”
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Revelation 7 :
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes —who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[Isaiah 49:10]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[Isaiah 49:10]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[Isaiah 25:8]”
Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world[Or written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain].9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.
10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed[Some manuscripts anyone kills] with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”[Jer. 15:2]
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.
Revelation 21 :
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Revelation 22:
Eden Restored
22 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
1 Corinthians 15 :
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[Psalm 8:6] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
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The irony is for the determinist God must determine and decree every action of His creation to be "Omnieverything"...yet I believe Him to also be "Omnieverything" while granting His creation the free agency to make real choices. Who has the limited view of God here and fashioned God in the immage after their liking? For the casual reader it should be evident who has God confined to their puny, limited, finite box.
Presumably the latter.
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
But does He have to "decree" it.
I could leave a chocolate cake on the table overnight and say to my kids (We had 11) - under no circumstances are you to eat any of this cake.
The decree is not to eat the cake.
That the cake would be eaten is simply nature taking it's course.
I guess that could be applied to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Perhaps an intended consequence of "free will" (sorry)?
HankD
psalms109:31
Active Member
We can simply just say no to our will to eat cake!
psalms109:31
Active Member
We don't punish our children for doing their will, we punish them for not doing our will. In which we know they can so they can learn sometimes it is not good to follow their own will but ours. If they can't fight their will why punish them?
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psalms109:31
Active Member
My will still wants that cake, because of your word and fear of the consequences makes a part of me to stop eating that cake, but still my desire and will is to eat that cake. That has not change. So the will to me has no freedom my free agency fighting that desire that comes from my will does.
That's like saying...
John believes in a God whose holiness dictates that he do all things righteously.
But Jack believes in a God who is so holy that he can maintain his holiness while doing all kinds of unrighteousness.
Who is really forcing God into a box?
...
See how silly that reasoning is?
It's like the "God is so sovereign that he is not in control of every thing" thing.
You might as well say that God is so omnipresent that he is not in millions of places in the universe.
You might as well say that God is so omnipotent that needs all kinds of help to move the galaxies and hold atoms together.
When someone comes by and says- No. That's stupid. Words have meanings. If God is omnipotent then he never needs help upholding all things. If God is omnipresent then there is not one square inch of existence which he does not occupy-
Then somebody says- HA!!! See there!!! You try to put God in a box!!! You try to put God in a box!!!!
I believe in a God who is MORE omnipotent and MORE omnipresent than you do!!!
It's utterly ridiculous.
Either God is truly all knowing as it pertains to all things past, present and future or he is not. If he is then the future is settled. Nothing will happen that causes God to say, "Hmmmmph! I didn't plan that!!! That's a shocker!!!"
There is no "God is so all knowing that there are all kinds of things he does not know." That's madness and silly beyond words.
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It has to be that way at the start:
Psalm 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
Later it brings forth fruit:
Hebrews 12
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
HankD
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