What do BB Arminians Believe?

[Van]

Skandelon wrote:

"So, are you in agreement with Calvinists on this point? I'm not following you? Are you saying God preselects individuals and determines for them to have faith?"

The first question reveals a calculated ignorance. Calvinists believe our individual election for salvation occurs before the foundation of the world, whereas I point to 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says our individual election for salvation occurs "from" the beginning or after creation. Next, Calvinists believe our individual election for salvation is unconditional, whereas 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says our election is on the basis of faith in the truth. Now we cannot have faith in the truth until after we hear the gospel for faith comes from hearing. So I disagree with Calvinists on both points.

When does our individual election for salvation occur, Skandelon, before creation or after creation. This is not a convoluted question, any 5th grader would understand it.

The reason many folks claim they do not understand my view is they are using a tactic of debate. Talk about the question or the opponent rather than clearly answer the question.

Skandelon, who complains my question are hard to understand says we enter Christ by faith. This is not true we enter Christ by the hand of God transferring us from the realm of darkness, in Adam so to speak, into the kingdom of His Son. Now why does God choose some to transfer them into Christ. Because He credits their faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith in the truth.

Skandelon says this straightforward reading of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is too convoluted to comprehend. Me thinks he doth protest too much.

 

[Skandelon]

The first question reveals a calculated ignorance...This is not a convoluted question, any 5th grader would understand it...

The first and second comment reveals an un-calculated arrogance...and I'm a little embarrassed for how poorly you would treat another brother...especially one who is so close to you theologically in virtually every point.

Heaven forbid I come across this way to others...if I do, I repent and humbly ask for forgiveness.

Calvinists believe our individual election for salvation occurs before the foundation of the world, whereas I point to 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says our individual election for salvation occurs "from" the beginning or after creation. Next, Calvinists believe our individual election for salvation is unconditional, whereas 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says our election is on the basis of faith in the truth. Now we cannot have faith in the truth until after we hear the gospel for faith comes from hearing. So I disagree with Calvinists on both points.

And the Corporate view of election (which doesn't negate individuals being chosen for salvation, mind you) would say that Paul is speaking to and about Gentiles generally in that he is an apostle to the Gentiles and is thanking God that he has chosen them for salvation through faith in Christ. This view is expounded upon more thoroughly elsewhere...

When does our individual election for salvation occur, Skandelon, before creation or after creation.

After....yet it has always been God's plan to provide salvation to all nations through faith, so generally speaking its before creation, but individually speaking it is after. That is why I seek clarity regarding your statements.

The reason many folks claim they do not understand my view is they are using a tactic of debate. Talk about the question or the opponent rather than clearly answer the question.

Don't confuse those with the people who genuinely want clarity and would rather not be insulted in the process of getting it.

Skandelon says this straightforward reading of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is too convoluted to comprehend.

Where did I say that? You are overstepping brother. I understand 2 Thess. 2:13 from the corporate interpretation, which is held by many predominate Baptist scholars. You can undermine, belittle, and ignore that perspective all you want, but then you'd be guilty of the very thing you accuse others of doing to your view all time. How about seek to understand my perspective and debate it fairly and objectively? That is the least we could do for each other as brothers in the Lord.

 

[Van]

Hey Skandelon, I am the one trying to get you to discuss your views, rather than discuss how I undermine, belittle and ignore the corporate view of 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Paul was writing to a group of individuals, i.e. the Thessalonians church and therefore the "you" of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is directed at them as a group of individuals, not Gentiles in general.

Note that the choice was from the beginning or after creation. Did you say whether this "corporate election view" of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 occurred before or after election? I did not find that answer.

We are on page 9 and I have been seeking answers and have received lots of generalities concerning the quality of my questions and my character and so forth, but no so much concerning simple clear and specific statements of belief.

You mention "so generally speaking its before creation, but individually speaking it is after." Now as I often post, I believe the election of us in Him (Ephesians 1:4) is corporate and occurred before creation, so that would seem to mesh with "generally speaking its before creation" and I believe our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, so that would seem to mesh with "but individually speaking it is after." Are we on the same page concerning two elections for salvation, one corporate before creation and one individual after creation during our lifetime when God accepts our faith?

Even a dog knows when when it is being kicked.

 

[Skandelon]

Hey Skandelon, I am the one trying to get you to discuss your views, rather than discuss how I undermine, belittle and ignore the corporate view of 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Paul was writing to a group of individuals, i.e. the Thessalonians church and therefore the "you" of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is directed at them as a group of individuals, not Gentiles in general.

The best way I know to illustrate my perspective is through a Civil Rights analogy. Please read this with an open mind and with objectivity and I think you will better understand the intent of Paul in passages such as this one:

I think the best way to understand this verse from the Corporate perspective is to try and put yourself in Paul's shoes.

Pretend with me that we live before the Civil War and we are all slave owners. We have been taught wrongly that black people are not real people, just property. We, therefore, have concluded that God has no desire to save them. In our minds, they are no different than animals. (Of course, this thinking is abhorrent, and rightly so, but many held to this belief in those days, so please stay with me on the point of the analogy)

Now, you, are a respected white pastor in the community and all of your pastor friends and mentors believe as you do that blacks are not apart of God's covenant. In fact, you think they are not worthy of God's attention any more so than a dog. This is how you were raised to think as was everyone around you.

One day, God blinds you while walking down the road (like He did Paul) or speaks to you in a vivid dream (like He did Peter) and tells you that your views about black people are wrong and that God loves them and wants them to be a part of His covenant just like white people. At first your flesh objects saying, "What not those dirty slaves, surely not, you have only chosen us Lord." But God convinces you that his love for them is as real as his love for you and that it has ALWAYS been His plan from the very beginning to save the black people.

Then God calls you to preach to blacks and convince the whites that your ministry is really from God. Difficult job. Now, you can relate to Paul's dilemma with regard to the Gentiles.

Continuing in our analogy; you become know as the "preacher to the blacks" and you are not very popular at all. In fact, the whites argue that blacks aren't deserving of entrance into God's covenant and they beat you and even throw you in prison many times. But you argue, "God can show mercy on whom ever he wants!" And when you write to the black churches that you helped to start you say things like, "I thank God that He has chosen you from the beginning," because everyone else keeps telling them they have not been chosen by God. Even those whites who do believe you are trying to get the blacks to cover their dark skin or paint over it so they can become like the whites and you have to continually defend the blacks. But your statement about God choosing them is more about blacks generally, as a group, not as individuals in particular, right?

I know this is just an analogy and all analogies fall short, but hopefully this one provides some perspective as to why Paul says some of the things he says. Such as, "I praise God that he has chosen you from the foundation of the world..." etc... We have to be careful not to confuse what God is choosing.

Make sense? I'm not asking for agreement...I'm asking for understanding.

 

[Van]

Yes, Skandelon, I understand you think Paul is telling the Gentiles at Thessalonia that God has chosen them, just as He chose the Jews, i.e. a corporate election based on believing rather than blood line.

And you are right again, God did corporately elect the Gentiles in Thessalonia, but this verse (2 Thessalonians 2:13) is not addressing that election because the corporate election occurred before the beginning, whereas this one occurred after the beginning.

So I return to my question, did God individually elect the Gentiles of Thessalonia after they believed in Christ? Why not answer that question?

 

[Van]

One of the titles of Christ is Truth, and so if we do not receive the love of the Truth, we reject Christ crucified. For this is love, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. So to receive the love of the Truth, is to accept the gospel.

Now during end times, those that do not receive the love of the Truth, God will send a deluding influence so they will believe what is false in order that they may be judged who did not believe the truth but took pleasure in wickedness.

But thanks be to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, for God has chosen you [the believers of Thessalonia] for salvation from the beginning [of the New Covenant] through sanctification by the Spirit [the Holy Spirit sets us apart in Christ] and faith in the Truth. To be set apart through faith in the Truth must be an individual by individual operation, God setting apart believers as determined by His assessment in Christ.

 

[12strings]

One of the titles of Christ is Truth, and so if we do not receive the love of the Truth, we reject Christ crucified. For this is love, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. So to receive the love of the Truth, is to accept the gospel.

Now during end times, those that do not receive the love of the Truth, God will send a deluding influence so they will believe what is false in order that they may be judged who did not believe the truth but took pleasure in wickedness.

But thanks be to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, for God has chosen you [the believers of Thessalonia] for salvation from the beginning [of the New Covenant] through sanctification by the Spirit [the Holy Spirit sets us apart in Christ] and faith in the Truth. To be set apart through faith in the Truth must be an individual by individual operation, God setting apart believers as determined by His assessment in Christ.

In other words, we are saved by grace through faith.

In other words, we receive the righteousness of God that was brought to us by Christ...by faith. (Rom. 3:21-26). In other words God is the Justifier of the one who has faith in Christ(v. 26). It is in fact for "ALL WHO BELIEVE" (V.22)...so although it is God alone who can recognize true belief and faith and distinguish it from error, it seems ALL who truly have faith in Christ will be accepted by God, based on the righteousness of Christ.

What I don't understand is this statement:

Skandelon...says we enter Christ by faith. This is not true... we enter Christ by the hand of God transferring us from the realm of darkness, in Adam so to speak, into the kingdom of His Son. Now why does God choose some to transfer them into Christ. Because He credits their faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith in the truth.

If God sees a persons faith and credits their faith as righteousness, how is this different than simply saying we enter Christ by faith, or God accepts all who truly believe?

 

[12strings]

Van, Here are what I think are the biggest problems with what you are saying (the following quotes are from several different posts of yours) ...

1) Yes, I am saying that people love Jesus with all their heart.

...Does God reveal a specific criteria upon which He bases His crediting that faith as righteousness. To a degree yes...It is faithful faith...that results in thinking and doing our best to serve Him...

...Not with perfection, but with all we have got, each day.

...Jesus accepted Peter, not because he hit the mark, but because he was doing all he was able to do at that time.

It seems that you are putting a lot of stock in people "doing thier best" for God, which I believe does not fit with either the scriptures or human experience. Most people, even real, committed Christians would readily admit that they do not do their best for God hardly any of the time, but that he is gracious and faithful, even when we are faithless.

If the basis for god crediting someone's faith as righteousness is whether or not they "do their best to serve him" or "giving all we have got, each day." then I'm afraid no one would ever be elected to be saved.

I realize you are closely following James' logic that a real faith is one that works, but I think a distinction must be made between "real" & "True" faith---and faith that "does it's best."

I am convinced by observing my one life and the life of many faithful Christians around me that none of us actually "do our best" we all could do more for God, but for various sinful and selfish reasons, we do not. This is not the basis of whether or not God accepts our faith.

 

[Winman]

double post

 

[Winman]

Van, Here are what I think are the biggest problems with what you are saying (the following quotes are from several different posts of yours) ...

It seems that you are putting a lot of stock in people "doing thier best" for God, which I believe does not fit with either the scriptures or human experience. Most people, even real, committed Christians would readily admit that they do not do their best for God hardly any of the time, but that he is gracious and faithful, even when we are faithless.

If the basis for god crediting someone's faith as righteousness is whether or not they "do their best to serve him" or "giving all we have got, each day." then I'm afraid no one would ever be elected to be saved.

I realize you are closely following James' logic that a real faith is one that works, but I think a distinction must be made between "real" & "True" faith---and faith that "does it's best."

I am convinced by observing my one life and the life of many faithful Christians around me that none of us actually "do our best" we all could do more for God, but for various sinful and selfish reasons, we do not. This is not the basis of whether or not God accepts our faith.

The false believers in Matthew 7 were actually depending on their obedience and their good works. Notice that it is emphasized that they called Jesus, "Lord, Lord".

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Some will take offense, but these fellows sound like those who follow Lordship Salvation. They boasted that Jesus was their Lord, and that they performed many good works in his name. Jesus said he never knew them.

Contrast this to the publican who made no boast of being obedient, but simply cast himself completely on the Lord and depended on his mercy.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee believed in the true God, but he did not submit to the righteousness of God. He boasted of his own obedience and his own good works.

The publican came in sincere humility and cast himself on God's mercy and was saved. This is true saving faith.

Now, that said, this doesn't mean we can go out and do anything we want after being saved. We now belong to the Lord and he wants us to turn from sin and live a holy life. But it is not our obedience or works that save us, we must depend upon Jesus alone and what he has done to save us.

 

[Winman]

Van, Here are what I think are the biggest problems with what you are saying (the following quotes are from several different posts of yours) ...




It seems that you are putting a lot of stock in people "doing thier best" for God, which I believe does not fit with either the scriptures or human experience. Most people, even real, committed Christians would readily admit that they do not do their best for God hardly any of the time, but that he is gracious and faithful, even when we are faithless.

If the basis for god crediting someone's faith as righteousness is whether or not they "do their best to serve him" or "giving all we have got, each day." then I'm afraid no one would ever be elected to be saved.

I realize you are closely following James' logic that a real faith is one that works, but I think a distinction must be made between "real" & "True" faith---and faith that "does it's best."

I am convinced by observing my one life and the life of many faithful Christians around me that none of us actually "do our best" we all could do more for God, but for various sinful and selfish reasons, we do not. This is not the basis of whether or not God accepts our faith.

The false believers in Matthew 7 were actually depending on their obedience and their good works. Notice that is emphasized that they called Jesus, "Lord, Lord".

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Some will take offense, but these fellows sound like those who follow Lordship Salvation. They boasted that Jesus was their Lord, and that they performed many good works in his name. Jesus said he never knew them.

Contrast this to the publican who made no boast of being obedient, but simply cast himself completely on the Lord and depended on his mercy.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee believed in the true God, but he did not submit to the righteousness of God. He boasted of his own obedience and his own good works.

The publican came in sincere humility and cast himself on God's mercy and was saved. This is true saving faith.

Now, that said, this doesn't mean we can go out and do anything we want after being saved. We now belong to the Lord and he wants us to turn from sin and live a holy life. But it is not our obedience or works that save us, we must depend upon Jesus alone and what he has done to save us.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, Skandelon, I understand you think Paul is telling the Gentiles at Thessalonia that God has chosen them, just as He chose the Jews, i.e. a corporate election based on believing rather than blood line.

And you are right again, God did corporately elect the Gentiles in Thessalonia, but this verse (2 Thessalonians 2:13) is not addressing that election because the corporate election occurred before the beginning, whereas this one occurred after the beginning.

The passage says, "from the beginning," which simply means that God has always planned on saving the Gentile peoples through faith and this teaching is not some 'new doctrine' that Paul is just making up...it has been God's plan 'from the beginning.' You say I'm not answering your question, but how can I be any more clear than this?

Look at the context of the passage starting in verse 9:

9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.​

Notice who he is talking about here? The Jews who are being 'cut off from the tree' (Rm 11) and hardened in their rebellion. (Jn 12:39; Acts 28:23-28) This is important because he now is contrasting the Jews with his audience as he continues...

13 But we ought always to thank God for you (Gentiles), brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.​

Notice the use of pronouns. Paul and the other apostles often used the "our/us/we" pronouns in contrast with the "you/your" pronouns when addressing the Gentile believers. He is attempting to show they are included in the covenant of Israel's God. They are the elect ones too. They are not barbarian dogs like everyone around them is saying. They don't have to convert to Judaism to be accepted like they are being told.

So I return to my question, did God individually elect the Gentiles of Thessalonia after they believed in Christ? Why not answer that question?

Because your question has a flawed premise. I've explained my perspective of this verse in the clearest most simply way I know how. God has chosen to ingraft the Gentiles, thus providing them the means to enter covenant with God through faith in Christ...so that is a corporate election, which has been God's plan all along. So, is the individual left out? Of course not. The individual Gentile is granted the opportunity to enter Covenant with God. He is invited and granted the means to enter ("many are called"). But only those who enter by faith and are clothed in the righteousness of Christ (wedding clothes) will be allowed to enter ("few are chosen").

 

[Van]

Hi 12 Strings:

If God sees a persons faith and credits their faith as righteousness, how is this different than simply saying we enter Christ by faith, or God accepts all who truly believe?

1) You are again making "faith" the eternal ticket to salvation. If you believe all the right things, with all the right fervor, then God will accept you and be saved. This is totally, completely wrong. I say again, no one is saved by him or her willing to be saved and doing a work of righteousness that merits salvation. Why are you unwilling to accept this rather obvious truth! We are saved through or on the basis of faith, but faith does not save us. God saves us, not according to works we have done. How are we really saved? By faith or by grace. Please answer this very simple question!! Did Peter commit to loving Christ with agape love, the correct love with the correct fervor? Nope. Did Jesus accept Peter because He knew Peter was committing to Christ with all his heart, with every fiber of his being, knowing that Peter's love was not where it would be in the future? Yes. We do not hit the mark with perfection, God credits or not our faith as righteousness, based on His knowledge of our heart-felt love and devotion to Christ. So it is by grace we are saved through faith and not because we manage to meet the standard of Christ.

Next, are we saved by a process, or are we saved in an blink of an eye when God spiritually puts us in Christ? In the blink of an eye. So it is not a life long sustained effort that saves us. No one would be saved by such a process. We are saved because God chooses to have mercy upon us, and when He does, He protects our faith such that we will always love Jesus and want to serve Him, 1 Peter 1:3-5.

But He does not protect our walk, we can build on the foundation of Christ with perishable stuff, that earns no rewards and we enter heaven as one escaping from a fire, or we can build on the foundation of Christ with imperishable stuff and earn rewards, such as being surrounded in heaven with those we have helped enter the kingdom.

I am looking forward to meeting my great grandmother in person, one day. She died in 1937, years before I was born. But I have a copy of her letter to my grandfather, where she tells him, from her death bed, she has prayed for each of his children every day (and that would include my mother) and that we will all be together with those we have lost. Was she perfect? Nope. Was she a witness for our Jesus. You bet.

It seems that you are putting a lot of stock in people "doing their best" for God, which I believe does not fit with either the scriptures or human experience. Most people, even real, committed Christians would readily admit that they do not do their best for God hardly any of the time, but that he is gracious and faithful, even when we are faithless.

Again, I am a once saved, always saved kind of guy. This view does fit with scripture. But as I said, God protects our faith, not our walk. You spoke of experience, now you tell me, even in the middle of you sinning, if someone grabbed you and said, do want to do this or cling to Christ, your answer from your heart of hearts would be you want to cling to Christ. If you answer is otherwise, I would suggest your experience is different from mine and from every Christian I know.

Last point, I think you have confused serving Jesus with all we have each day with earning salvation. We do not earn salvation, but we do earn rewards, after we are saved. So sometimes this failure to serve effectively is spoken of as a "loss of salvation" but it is a loss of the rewards, and not eternal life that is in view.

 

[saturneptune]

The passage says, "from the beginning," which simply means that God has always planned on saving the Gentile peoples through faith and this teaching is not some 'new doctrine' that Paul is just making up...it has been God's plan 'from the beginning.' You say I'm not answering your question, but how can I be any more clear than this?

Look at the context of the passage starting in verse 9:

9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.​

Notice who he is talking about here? The Jews who are being 'cut off from the tree' (Rm 11) and hardened in their rebellion. (Jn 12:39; Acts 28:23-28) This is important because he now is contrasting the Jews with his audience as he continues...

13 But we ought always to thank God for you (Gentiles), brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.​

Notice the use of pronouns. Paul and the other apostles often used the "our/us/we" pronouns in contrast with the "you/your" pronouns when addressing the Gentile believers. He is attempting to show they are included in the covenant of Israel's God. They are the elect ones too. They are not barbarian dogs like everyone around them is saying. They don't have to convert to Judaism to be accepted like they are being told.


Because your question has a flawed premise. I've explained my perspective of this verse in the clearest most simply way I know how. God has chosen to ingraft the Gentiles, thus providing them the means to enter covenant with God through faith in Christ...so that is a corporate election, which has been God's plan all along. So, is the individual left out? Of course not. The individual Gentile is granted the opportunity to enter Covenant with God. He is invited and granted the means to enter ("many are called"). But only those who enter by faith and are clothed in the righteousness of Christ (wedding clothes) will be allowed to enter ("few are chosen").

Sometimes you hit a home run. Since I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle of or outside the box of the traditional Calvin-Arminian debates, this makes sense. Another point extreme Calvinists have a hard time explaining from the OT is Joshua's command to choose you this day whom you will serve.

A side note, I wish BB would ban the name Calvin and force the doctrine to be called something else based on the life he lived.

Excellent post.

 

[Van]

Hi Skandelon, from the beginning does not equate with God always knew who He would choose. Paul knew how to write "before the foundation of the world, or from all eternity. But the inspired word does not read that way hear. Stick with what it actually says. And it says from and not before. And the beginning might refer to creation, but cannot refer to before creation, and I believe it refers to from the New Covenant in His blood, because no one was set apart in Christ before Christ died on the cross, Hebrews 11:39-40.

Your contextual argument is completely mistaken in my opinion, Paul is telling us that in the end times, those who choose to reject the love of Christ, i.e. reject the gospel, will have a deluding influence given to them so they will be unable to accept the gospel. So verse 13 is contrasting to anyone who rejects the gospel, Jew or Gentile.

Paul is not drawing a distinction, did you see the "brothers" in the very passage you quoted. Brothers is used for brothers and sisters and refers to fellow Christians, not Gentiles excluding Jews.

Rewriting your refusal to answer, not because of a flawed premise, but because you position is mistaken, I get the Gentiles were not elected individually to salvation based on faith, but were automatically clothed in righteousness when they entered by their faith and not God's action to put them into the kingdom.

Bottom line, your view has people entering by faith, and when they enter that equates with being chosen.

So lets add up the problems:

1) You must make "from the beginning" refer to before the beginning.

2) You must make the sanctifying work of the spirit equate with walking into a wedding party.

3) You must make brothers equate the Gentile nation

As you said at the beginning, I understand you view, but do not believe it is scriptural.

 

[saturneptune]

Hi Skandelon, from the beginning does not equate with God always knew who He would choose. Paul knew how to write "before the foundation of the world, or from all eternity. But the inspired word does not read that way hear. Stick with what it actually says. And it says from and not before. And the beginning might refer to creation, but cannot refer to before creation, and I believe it refers to from the New Covenant in His blood, because no one was set apart in Christ before Christ died on the cross, Hebrews 11:39-40.

Your contextual argument is completely mistaken in my opinion, Paul is telling us that in the end times, those who choose to reject the love of Christ, i.e. reject the gospel, will have a deluding influence given to them so they will be unable to accept the gospel. So verse 13 is contrasting to anyone who rejects the gospel, Jew or Gentile.

Paul is not drawing a distinction, did you see the "brothers" in the very passage you quoted. Brothers is used for brothers and sisters and refers to fellow Christians, not Gentiles excluding Jews.

Rewriting your refusal to answer, not because of a flawed premise, but because you position is mistaken, I get the Gentiles were not elected individually to salvation based on faith, but were automatically clothed in righteousness when they entered by their faith and not God's action to put them into the kingdom.

Bottom line, your view has people entering by faith, and when they enter that equates with being chosen.

So lets add up the problems:

1) You must make "from the beginning" refer to before the beginning.

2) You must make the sanctifying work of the spirit equate with walking into a wedding party.

3) You must make brothers equate the Gentile nation

As you said at the beginning, I understand you view, but do not believe it is scriptural.

There is no such thing as before the beginning. Another term is from eternity past. There is no starting point, as there is no ending point. You put things in the context of time. As long as there has been God, He knew.

 

[Skandelon]

Hi Skandelon, from the beginning does not equate with God always knew who He would choose.

What!?! I give up. You still think I believe this is about individuals?!? How else can I explain my perspective to you so that you will understand?

1) You must make "from the beginning" refer to before the beginning.

When did I ever even imply that? I think from the beginning means just that, 'from the beginning.' God, 'from the beginning' planned on saving whosoever believed in Christ, even if they were not of Israel. End of sentence and end of discussion until I feel that you have restated my perspective correctly I really don't have anything to say.

May I suggest you read some of the scholars who support the Corporate view of Election so that you can understand what we are saying. Meanwhile can you refer me to at least one scholar who supports your interpretation of this text? I've requested this from you before but you never seem willing to comply for some reason? Why is that?

 

[Skandelon]

Sometimes you hit a home run.

Only sometimes? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Van]

Skandelon,

Paul wrote before the foundation of the world to refer to before creation and he wrote from the beginning to refer to something happening after creation. You can try to make before equal from, pro equal apo, all you want, so do Calvinists. I do not need to read any other experts who go the long way around the barn to redefine the meanings of words to cram their man-made doctrine into the text.

Note how you refer to God planning, which of course was done from all eternity and before the foundation of the world, but that is not what the verse says. The individual Thessalonians were chosen from the beginning, not before the foundation of the world. The verse does not address when God planned on choosing people.

My view of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is very similar to Dr. A. Rodgers. We are chosen based on faith.

 

[Van]

1) You must make "from the beginning" refer to before the foundation of the world or from all eternity. But they do not, therefore this election is not the same as the election of Ephesians 1:4. That one is corporate, this one is individual.

2) You must make the sanctifying work of the spirit equate with walking into a wedding party.

3) You must make brothers equate the Gentile nation

As you said at the beginning, I understand you view, but do not believe it is scriptural.

BTW, Dr. A. Rodgers holds a very similar view of 2 Thessalonians 2:13, i.e. we are chosen based on our faith in the truth.

Finally, I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said I disagree with a biblical point of view because I do not understand it. I posted specific reasons why your view is not biblical.