Featured What do BB Arminians Believe?

The first and second comment reveals an un-calculated arrogance...and I'm a little embarrassed for how poorly you would treat another brother...especially one who is so close to you theologically in virtually every point.

Heaven forbid I come across this way to others...if I do, I repent and humbly ask for forgiveness.

And the Corporate view of election (which doesn't negate individuals being chosen for salvation, mind you) would say that Paul is speaking to and about Gentiles generally in that he is an apostle to the Gentiles and is thanking God that he has chosen them for salvation through faith in Christ. This view is expounded upon more thoroughly elsewhere...

After....yet it has always been God's plan to provide salvation to all nations through faith, so generally speaking its before creation, but individually speaking it is after. That is why I seek clarity regarding your statements.

Don't confuse those with the people who genuinely want clarity and would rather not be insulted in the process of getting it.

Where did I say that? You are overstepping brother. I understand 2 Thess. 2:13 from the corporate interpretation, which is held by many predominate Baptist scholars. You can undermine, belittle, and ignore that perspective all you want, but then you'd be guilty of the very thing you accuse others of doing to your view all time. How about seek to understand my perspective and debate it fairly and objectively? That is the least we could do for each other as brothers in the Lord.

 

The best way I know to illustrate my perspective is through a Civil Rights analogy. Please read this with an open mind and with objectivity and I think you will better understand the intent of Paul in passages such as this one:

I think the best way to understand this verse from the Corporate perspective is to try and put yourself in Paul's shoes.

Pretend with me that we live before the Civil War and we are all slave owners. We have been taught wrongly that black people are not real people, just property. We, therefore, have concluded that God has no desire to save them. In our minds, they are no different than animals. (Of course, this thinking is abhorrent, and rightly so, but many held to this belief in those days, so please stay with me on the point of the analogy)

Now, you, are a respected white pastor in the community and all of your pastor friends and mentors believe as you do that blacks are not apart of God's covenant. In fact, you think they are not worthy of God's attention any more so than a dog. This is how you were raised to think as was everyone around you.

One day, God blinds you while walking down the road (like He did Paul) or speaks to you in a vivid dream (like He did Peter) and tells you that your views about black people are wrong and that God loves them and wants them to be a part of His covenant just like white people. At first your flesh objects saying, "What not those dirty slaves, surely not, you have only chosen us Lord." But God convinces you that his love for them is as real as his love for you and that it has ALWAYS been His plan from the very beginning to save the black people.

Then God calls you to preach to blacks and convince the whites that your ministry is really from God. Difficult job. Now, you can relate to Paul's dilemma with regard to the Gentiles.

Continuing in our analogy; you become know as the "preacher to the blacks" and you are not very popular at all. In fact, the whites argue that blacks aren't deserving of entrance into God's covenant and they beat you and even throw you in prison many times. But you argue, "God can show mercy on whom ever he wants!" And when you write to the black churches that you helped to start you say things like, "I thank God that He has chosen you from the beginning," because everyone else keeps telling them they have not been chosen by God. Even those whites who do believe you are trying to get the blacks to cover their dark skin or paint over it so they can become like the whites and you have to continually defend the blacks. But your statement about God choosing them is more about blacks generally, as a group, not as individuals in particular, right?

I know this is just an analogy and all analogies fall short, but hopefully this one provides some perspective as to why Paul says some of the things he says. Such as, "I praise God that he has chosen you from the foundation of the world..." etc... We have to be careful not to confuse what God is choosing.

Make sense? I'm not asking for agreement...I'm asking for understanding.

 

In other words, we are saved by grace through faith.

In other words, we receive the righteousness of God that was brought to us by Christ...by faith. (Rom. 3:21-26). In other words God is the Justifier of the one who has faith in Christ(v. 26). It is in fact for "ALL WHO BELIEVE" (V.22)...so although it is God alone who can recognize true belief and faith and distinguish it from error, it seems ALL who truly have faith in Christ will be accepted by God, based on the righteousness of Christ.

What I don't understand is this statement:

If God sees a persons faith and credits their faith as righteousness, how is this different than simply saying we enter Christ by faith, or God accepts all who truly believe?

 

Van, Here are what I think are the biggest problems with what you are saying (the following quotes are from several different posts of yours) ...

It seems that you are putting a lot of stock in people "doing thier best" for God, which I believe does not fit with either the scriptures or human experience. Most people, even real, committed Christians would readily admit that they do not do their best for God hardly any of the time, but that he is gracious and faithful, even when we are faithless.

If the basis for god crediting someone's faith as righteousness is whether or not they "do their best to serve him" or "giving all we have got, each day." then I'm afraid no one would ever be elected to be saved.

I realize you are closely following James' logic that a real faith is one that works, but I think a distinction must be made between "real" & "True" faith---and faith that "does it's best."

I am convinced by observing my one life and the life of many faithful Christians around me that none of us actually "do our best" we all could do more for God, but for various sinful and selfish reasons, we do not. This is not the basis of whether or not God accepts our faith.

 

double post

 

The false believers in Matthew 7 were actually depending on their obedience and their good works. Notice that it is emphasized that they called Jesus, "Lord, Lord".

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Some will take offense, but these fellows sound like those who follow Lordship Salvation. They boasted that Jesus was their Lord, and that they performed many good works in his name. Jesus said he never knew them.

Contrast this to the publican who made no boast of being obedient, but simply cast himself completely on the Lord and depended on his mercy.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee believed in the true God, but he did not submit to the righteousness of God. He boasted of his own obedience and his own good works.

The publican came in sincere humility and cast himself on God's mercy and was saved. This is true saving faith.

Now, that said, this doesn't mean we can go out and do anything we want after being saved. We now belong to the Lord and he wants us to turn from sin and live a holy life. But it is not our obedience or works that save us, we must depend upon Jesus alone and what he has done to save us.

 

The false believers in Matthew 7 were actually depending on their obedience and their good works. Notice that is emphasized that they called Jesus, "Lord, Lord".

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Some will take offense, but these fellows sound like those who follow Lordship Salvation. They boasted that Jesus was their Lord, and that they performed many good works in his name. Jesus said he never knew them.

Contrast this to the publican who made no boast of being obedient, but simply cast himself completely on the Lord and depended on his mercy.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee believed in the true God, but he did not submit to the righteousness of God. He boasted of his own obedience and his own good works.

The publican came in sincere humility and cast himself on God's mercy and was saved. This is true saving faith.

Now, that said, this doesn't mean we can go out and do anything we want after being saved. We now belong to the Lord and he wants us to turn from sin and live a holy life. But it is not our obedience or works that save us, we must depend upon Jesus alone and what he has done to save us.

 

The passage says, "from the beginning," which simply means that God has always planned on saving the Gentile peoples through faith and this teaching is not some 'new doctrine' that Paul is just making up...it has been God's plan 'from the beginning.' You say I'm not answering your question, but how can I be any more clear than this?

Look at the context of the passage starting in verse 9:

9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.​

Notice who he is talking about here? The Jews who are being 'cut off from the tree' (Rm 11) and hardened in their rebellion. (Jn 12:39; Acts 28:23-28) This is important because he now is contrasting the Jews with his audience as he continues...

13 But we ought always to thank God for you (Gentiles), brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.​

Notice the use of pronouns. Paul and the other apostles often used the "our/us/we" pronouns in contrast with the "you/your" pronouns when addressing the Gentile believers. He is attempting to show they are included in the covenant of Israel's God. They are the elect ones too. They are not barbarian dogs like everyone around them is saying. They don't have to convert to Judaism to be accepted like they are being told.

Because your question has a flawed premise. I've explained my perspective of this verse in the clearest most simply way I know how. God has chosen to ingraft the Gentiles, thus providing them the means to enter covenant with God through faith in Christ...so that is a corporate election, which has been God's plan all along. So, is the individual left out? Of course not. The individual Gentile is granted the opportunity to enter Covenant with God. He is invited and granted the means to enter ("many are called"). But only those who enter by faith and are clothed in the righteousness of Christ (wedding clothes) will be allowed to enter ("few are chosen").

 

Sometimes you hit a home run. Since I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle of or outside the box of the traditional Calvin-Arminian debates, this makes sense. Another point extreme Calvinists have a hard time explaining from the OT is Joshua's command to choose you this day whom you will serve.

A side note, I wish BB would ban the name Calvin and force the doctrine to be called something else based on the life he lived.

Excellent post.

 

There is no such thing as before the beginning. Another term is from eternity past. There is no starting point, as there is no ending point. You put things in the context of time. As long as there has been God, He knew.

 

What!?! I give up. You still think I believe this is about individuals?!? How else can I explain my perspective to you so that you will understand?

When did I ever even imply that? I think from the beginning means just that, 'from the beginning.' God, 'from the beginning' planned on saving whosoever believed in Christ, even if they were not of Israel. End of sentence and end of discussion until I feel that you have restated my perspective correctly I really don't have anything to say.

May I suggest you read some of the scholars who support the Corporate view of Election so that you can understand what we are saying. Meanwhile can you refer me to at least one scholar who supports your interpretation of this text? I've requested this from you before but you never seem willing to comply for some reason? Why is that?

 

Only sometimes? :smilewinkgrin: