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You indicated no scholars/commentators support my view, but Luther defended "a good hearty lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian Church, a lie in case of necessity, a useful lie." Such lies, he said, "would not be against God." I think another thing we have to remember is that...

I have Hebrews 11 listing her act of faith (hiding the spies) as praiseworthy. So, unless you think sin is praiseworthy then it is incumbent upon you to provide a text that contradicts this view. God told Abraham to kill his son. Which is worse? Lying or murder? FreeatLast wrote: He...

Right. When Rahab lied to protect the spies due to her faith in God it was not sin. When Abraham raised his hand with the intent to kill his son, it was not sin. Circumstances like that of Rahab, or Abraham, or family hiding Jews in Nazi Germany...I kind of thought that was established...

Just kidding. That was a very good post Aaron.

Ok, now I might reconsider my position.... ;)

I don't remember speaking of sin's expedience. And yet Rahab was not chastised for her lie, but instead listed as a person of faith because of what she did in faith. Again, may I remind you that I'm not arguing against the 'wrongness' of sin, I'm arguing against the concept that all deception is...

I agree. That which is not 'beneficial' would fit in the 'wrong' category, but ALL things fit in the permissible category because those under Grace are not judged for what they do or don't do, they are judged by the righteousness of Christ imputed on their behalf. Yet, she is listed right...

"All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial." You can't earn points when you are playing with someone who isn't keeping score. God is not keeping score. It's not about rule keeping with him, its about your character, your heart. We are not under the law. We are under...

Judging by the replies of this thread, it doesn't appear anyone wants to really discuss the topic of the OP???

Fallacy: Guilt by association. :confused: Ok, suppose a real person lied to protect a Jew in WW2. Was that sin hated by God? Is it possible to lie in faith that what you are doing is the right thing? Can you give an example of such a case? Fallacy: Ad Hominem I asked a question. I did...

Scripture was produced and preserved by God to point us into an abiding love relationship with Christ. It is sufficiently powerful to do just that.

:applause: Great quote.

So, if the person put in a situation such as the heroes saving the Jews from the Nazis or facing a man with a gun they better be trained in 'misdirection' so as to avoid offending God by lying? Is that what you are suggesting? Do you suppose God watched the kind people who hid a Jewish...

Thanks! Circular reasoning can get quite confusing, especially for those of us who have yet to be enlightened by God. :)

They remain under wrath and thus will perish ONLY because of their rejection of the truth. I've told you all a thousand times that I affirm the doctrine of Original Sin. My view is not that complicated and it is very common. In fact, it is consistent with the scholars who wrote the baptist...

Thank you Icon for aptly illustrating the circular fallacy of question beggars everywhere for you are most certainly their poster child. :smilewinkgrin:

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question. Ordained to what? (Moderator hat on: guys please stop the personal attacks on each other and just discuss the topic. Take personal arguments to the PMs please)

Well all analogies fall short on some point and since there are no "accounts" in my story this particular point doesn't carry over. The point is that the provision was made. As the synod of Dort said, "No one perishes for lack of atonement." (or something like that) Calvin said virtually the...

But you are not using the claims of Calvinism to support your position that men are without excuse, instead you are only using the claims of Paul in Romans 1. See the difference? It would be like if you were arguing against my view by saying, "Clearly people are predestined to adoption as...

Right, my argument is: If the claims of Calvinism are true, then men would have an excuse and Romans 1 would be contradicted (for the reasons previously stated) My argument is not: If the claims of Romans 1 and Calvinism is true, then men would have an excuse. Make sense?