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Are there those here, besides Luke, who use the example of God's intervention in bringing about the crucifixion as proof that He likewise determines all other events such as the heinous crimes of notorious criminals?

I agree. All good points!

Help us understand. Are you arguing that one can be born from above and NEVER enter the kingdom?

How do you define hostility, because my 8 year old daughter has never once outwardly expressed any hostility toward God. Could it be that the gospel being presented to her early, that she was saved before she grew "hostile?" The word enmity doesn't carry near the same connotation in my view...

Ok, I think I'm finally following your argument. You are saying the "Rich Young Ruler" was a born-again believer, but hadn't "entered into his kingdom," meaning he hadn't "become a disciple?" So, you believe one can be regenerated but then refuse to "enter the kingdom?" Is that what I'm hearing?

Incorrect. Jesus does draw the distinction by making the statement. Even if he is only drawing attention to the what the wealthy have done, he is still acknowledging the distinction by making a comment (twice) regarding the difficulty for the rich to enter. That must be dealt with regardless...

So, just so I'm sure we are understanding you...you DON'T affirm the doctrine of Unconditional Election?

I agree. He "endows" it through the gospel appeal in which he calls us to be reconciled to God and some refuse the truth and thus will perish for their unbelief. :thumbs: Nice to finally be in agreement. = Yep. Nothing like a message of reconciliation to address an enemy, right...

Ok, suppose it is a Calvinistic family that a kid is raised in and he grows up believing in all the things you just said. Must their be a time in which he is also "hostile" toward God? And I think you post is deplorable as it suggests non-Calvinistic religion is rebellion while your religious...

I thought of another analogy: Picture a huge pendulum where on the right side rich people were seen as righteous and preferred by God for salvation; while the far left side represented Rich people being less preferred and even deterred from entering the kingdom. We agree that at this time many...

I understand that point and I think you are correct, but to suggest it more difficult for them to go to heaven is different from what you have said. If he were just trying to say that rich people are not preferred and are not guaranteed salvation He could have just said that, right? Why...

While I agree with the concept of original sin, I'm not sure this is necessarily accurate. What about a child who grows up in church, as is my testimony? I never remember being "hostile toward God" or his truths. My children likewise are certainly sinners and in need of a Savior but I don't...

P4T, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

As apposed to Lucifier who is also saving people? I'm not trying to be mean, but we all agree that God alone saves. This is not a question about whether or not Salvation is of God. That is a given. The question is regarding Jesus expressing the difficulty (not the impossibility) for wealthy...

And Paul clearly loved the people in the churches he started. So does being a Godly minister in a lessor role of the body for a time, but as I said to Free, we'll just agree to disagree. Who knows you won me over on the toilet paper role thing, you may win me over on this too. :smilewinkgrin:

Yep, I do it everyday. My wife and I disagree often. :) If I were in a church with you I'd probably submit my will to yours and limit our choices to only married men, because you seem to have a strong conviction and I wouldn't want to cause you to stumble or cause unnecessary strife in our...

What you see as "seeking to rationalize disobedience" I see as: "there is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus," for there is a great divide in living in continued disobedience to God and being restored from a mistake in your past. The qualification also lists other...

The same way that Paul took care of God's churches who he helped to start. He proved to be a pretty good manager, right? Plus, if a man doesn't have children the management is quite different, don't you think? I remember when it was just me and my wife and she helped me manage things making...

Well, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. I just think the concept that Paul was disqualifying himself, Jesus, and those single men he counseled to remain single (so as to better focus on serving the Lord) from pastoring is a HUGE stretch. But, I suppose if we...

Yeah, the man of God who has failed and been forgiven and restored certainly isn't the image we want to convey to the world. And of course, a Christian killer like Paul, an adultering murder like David, a Christ denier like Peter weren't near as bad as someone who gets a divorce....shame on...