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Exactly!:thumbsup:

Oh, I don't know; if DHK wants to be the next Dan Brown, he's making a good start.

I thought you chaps had soul liberty? Surely Zenas therefore has the right - if that is what he has discerned from Scripture - to (a) hold those views and (b) publish them in his church.

Or the Anglicans! We're sort of Reformed Catholics, and have kept Apostolic Succession (despite what you might read in Apostolicae Curiae!)

Wow! That's one heck of a bit of eisegesis.

On all of which I agree with you. You're still leaving out the 'how', though. Now, I've heard the term 'glorification' mentioned several times on these various threads; I've asked what that means and haven't yet had an answer.

Oooh, an easy one! Try Matt 5:48, Heb 10:14, 12:23, to name but three.

Not particularly, no; my position is best characterised by the term 'Reformed Catholic' ie: 'classic' Anglicanism. I promised yesterday to explain further what the Catholic Church's catechism says about grace. First off, it says that grace is a free gift from God, unmerited etc. and that our...

No. Yes, but my question remains: what if in our lives here on earth we are not fully transformed - how is that transformation then effected? RB mentioned 'glorification' at death and I've asked him to unpack this a bit more - so far he hasn't.

I will endeavour to do so tomorrow (GMT) but have to go to Christmas canapes with our bank now...

Did you not read the link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church I gave on the last page? It says very clearly "our justification comes from the grace of God".

Oh great! I thought personal attacks weren't allowed here? So much for talk about grace!

So what's the point of Rom 12:2 (to name but one Scripture that's pertinent to the discussion), then?

Ah. Now which bit of II Tim 3 would that be: the bit where Paul talks about Scripture (vv.15-16) or the bit where he talks about non-Scriptural doctrinal sources (v14)? No, no confusion at all. I'm just saying I'm struggling to see the word 'grace' there attached to the anathema. Maybe you left...

No reading comprehension problems here; I'm simply referring to what you said: (emphasis mine) So, are you trying to back-track? With which I agree 110%. But you've dodged the ontological change issue No confusion, but I'd like you to unpack that term. What do you understand it to mean? How...

Yes, but...what about conformity to the image of His Son?

Nope. But we are not talking about the Bible here (and you should know by now that I don't think that every jot and tittle of doctrine is to be found solely in the Bible); we are talking about a Tridentine Canon. And I've demonstrated in my link to the Catechism above that it's most unlikely...

Right, OK, so you're saying that sanctification is 'required'; earlier you said it is about having the mind of Christ. All well and good, but I repeat my question: if sanctification is incomplete at death, what then? How can we have the mind of Christ? And how can we (ontologically) be with...

Er...because the word isn't there.

Funny, I didn't see any mention of grace in that Tridentine quote you gave. And I think you'll find that Catholic do believe in salvation and justification by grace: see here