“I was predestined to be an Arminian or I chose to be a Calvinist.”

[psalms109:31]

I do not believe that any who trusted in Jesus will ever be told that I never knew you only those who we're doing their own will not the Fathers and doing it in Jesus name. They are the evil doers.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'd like you to attempt these questions:

What are the distinguishing qualifications of those that are in favor with God, and entitled to his eternal rewards? Or, which comes to the same thing, What is the nature of true religion? And wherein do lie the distinguishing notes of that virtue and holiness that is acceptable in the sight of God?

 

[SovereignMercy]

SM,

That text is speaking of the fact that the apostles would be guided into all truth,not each individual sheep.

There are some in here who resist Gods grace today,who over time will come to truth on it tommorow.
There are some who are saved who do not understand why or how yet. There are some who are religious but not saved.
There are some who will oppose truth right up until mt 7:21-24.

IC,
Jesus in the next "chapter" prays for the apostles and then all of us who will believe their testimony. One of those apostles, Paul, says by the Holy Spirit: For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. We have the same Holy Spirit and the COMPLETE Word of God.

Concerning your second paragraph. I am in agreement with the text that I already quoted. He WILL guide us into All truth. It is a process. We are to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. It's called sanctification and it is the work of God just as the rest of the process is. Why do the elect persevere? Because Jesus never fails.

I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; just as it is right for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my chains and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers with me of grace. For God is my witness, how greatly I long for you all with the affection of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

 

[WITBOTL]

You lost me...

My apologies Skandelon. I was needling you a bit. I read this board far more often than I post so I feel like I know some of the "characters" on here when I really do not.

My post was merely trying to point out that predestination according to the determinate counsel of the will of God does not negate man's choices, volition or accountability.

However, one of the problems with your post is that you are putting predestination up against the freedom of the will. Election is not an argument against the freedom of the will, that is addressed in the doctrine of Total Depravity.

Predestination is really about the Counsel of God's will that is not reactive and subjective but sovereign and objective and it relates to his sovereignty, immutability and the distinction between that which he has decreed, that which he has declaratively willed.

On God's Will and Decrees Boyce says:

The decrees of God may be defined as that just, wise, and holy purpose or plan by which eternally, and within
himself, he determines all things whatsoever that come to pass.
I. This purpose or plan is just, wise, and holy. Since it is formed by God it must have this character. His nature
forbids that anything otherwise shall proceed from him. Though what he permits may be unrighteous, or foolish,
or sinful, these characteristics belong to it because of others; while his will, purpose, or plan continues just, wise,
and holy...



By the will of God is meant that power inherent in his nature, by which he purposes and chooses any end or
object, or determines its existence...



But, even in the volition thus formed, God does not will freely, in the sense of willing arbitrarily. He is not indifferent as to what he will do. There is choice, and not arbitrary choice. There are reasons perceived by him,
which induce him to choose one end, rather than another, and one set of means to that end, in preference to
others. There is in each case a prevailing motive, not necessarily dependent upon its own force or power, but
upon the simple fact, that, in the midst of the numerous ends and means known to him through his infinite
knowledge, this motive makes this end, and these means best pleasing to him. The very nature of choice in any
being of intelligence and free agency makes this the method by which the will forms its decision. There is
nothing in the nature of the omniscient and all-purposing God, which forbids that this also should be the method
of his volitions. Our conception of God in this respect cannot be incorrect, although, as in all instances in which
we attempt to arrive at the perfections of God through those recognized as such in man, this conception may be
very inadequate...

and concerning election:

The latter theory is that God (who and not man is the one who chooses or elects), of his own purpose (in
accordance with his will, and not from any obligation to man, nor because of any will of man), has from Eternity
(the period of God's action, not in time in which man acts), determined to save (not has actually saved, but simply
determined so to do), [and to save (not to confer gospel or church privileges upon),] a definite number of
mankind (not the whole race, nor indefinitely merely some of them, nor indefinitely a certain proportionate part;
but a definite number), as individuals (not the whole or a part of the race, nor of a nation, nor of a church, nor of
a class, as of believers or the pious; but individuals), not for or because of any merit or work of theirs, nor of any
value to him of them (not for their good works, nor their holiness, nor excellence, nor their faith, nor their
spiritual sanctification, although the choice is to a salvation attained through faith and sanctification; nor their
value to him, though their salvation tends greatly to the manifested glory of his grace); but of his own good
pleasure (simply because he was pleased so to choose).

With respect to free will I suggest to you that the pervasiveness of total depravity has corrupted the freedom of the will so that the choices made with volition are always coloured by, informed by and tainted by the corruption in the heart.

So in other words it is not predestination that is somehow preventing you from making certain choices, it is your depravity. A belief in the decrees and plan of God according to the determinate counsel of his will does not deny that you make choices, possess a will and act with volition. In some cases God will act and intervene and in other's he will not, but all to the accomplishment of his sovereign purpose and design.

Does this then mean that man cannot choose God because his will is tainted by depravity? That depends on what you mean by "choose God." Unsaved men have been "choosing God" for centuries. There are unsaved men with faith. So then we must understand that it is not any faith that saves but faith in the shed blood of Lord Jesus Christ and a trusting in him personally as an all sufficient saviour. This kind of faith does not arise from a decision produced in the exercise of our will, nor can it because of depravity. It is the product of a repentant heart whereby our will is changed. This repentance and faith are gifts of grace bestowed at the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit.

The difference between the two positions as I see it is that one believes salvation is provided by God generally and that while God compels men to be saved it is effected by man in the exercise of his will to have faith. In opposition to that, and the position that I hold is that God offers salvation to all but has purposed some specifically to obtain it, compels them specifically and effects that salvation wholly by grace all according to the design and immutability of his purpose. Man becomes active as a recipient of the grace of God and before this he is at enmity and opposition to God.


While I am declaring more than arguing a position I think it is necessary when such a position does not appear to be understood.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

One subnote friend. If you are a student of James Montgomery Boyce, please note he was never a fan of the term " Total depravity" as he felt it to be misleading. See to JMB, totally could mean "utterly" which easily could imply that people are as bad as they could possibly be (which isn't true)

I'd prefer you adjust to Radical Depravity and/or Total Inability..... maybe even "radical corruption" which I personally like.

Carry on... your doing well :thumbs:

 

[WITBOTL]

If you are a student of James Montgomery Boyce, please note he was never a fan of the term " Total depravity" as he felt it to be misleading. See to JMB, totally could mean "utterly" which easily could imply that people are as bad as they could possibly be (which isn't true)

I'd prefer you adjust to Radical Depravity and/or Total Inability..... maybe even "radical corruption" which I personally like.

thanks EWF, you make a good point.
Depravity is not total in degree, but total in extent. I agree with the caveat about how the term can be misunderstood. I think the term depravity on its own is pretty good since you pretty much have to qualify and explain any descriptor you use anyways...

 

[Iconoclast]

IC,
Jesus in the next "chapter" prays for the apostles and then all of us who will believe their testimony. One of those apostles, Paul, says by the Holy Spirit: For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. We have the same Holy Spirit and the COMPLETE Word of God.

Concerning your second paragraph. I am in agreement with the text that I already quoted. He WILL guide us into All truth. It is a process. We are to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. It's called sanctification and it is the work of God just as the rest of the process is. Why do the elect persevere? Because Jesus never fails.

I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; just as it is right for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my chains and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers with me of grace. For God is my witness, how greatly I long for you all with the affection of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

SM,

We are on the same page as far as God's grace goes. And yes In Jn 17...we are included as those who would believe on THIER word..[the apostolic word}

But ...it is that very reason that the Apostles were unique.....let me show what i am saying like this:

These are spoken directly and only to the Apostles ;

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

We all are given the Holy Spirit since Pentecost.....but follow along for a minute-

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

None of us was present with Jesus when he spoke to the Apostles here as in vs 25,
He promised to teach them.....ALL THINGS.....

He did not teach them how to build a maytag refrigerator....but all things that pertain to life and godliness as Peter tells us.

1} He did this in person by direct revelation

2} he did this after he rose from the grave

3} He did this after ascending to Heaven through the Spirit.

This is why all charismatic ideas are wrong, because He has guided the Apostles into ALL TRUTH....The Faith Once{once for all time} delivered to the saints

And In verse 26...he will bring ALL THINGS to your remembrance...you see this in Acts 11:18

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you:

jn15

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

None of us was with Jesus from the beginning...but these were ordained :

14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

Jn16; he gives further instuction to them:

These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

If you read chapter 14, 15, 16 together ...then you see when and how we are concluded in 17....because of the ALL TRUTH...given to the Apostles...otherwise we would all be infallable...

Jn17;

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 

[Iconoclast]

I'd like you to attempt these questions:

What are the distinguishing qualifications of those that are in favor with God, and entitled to his eternal rewards? Or, which comes to the same thing, What is the nature of true religion? And wherein do lie the distinguishing notes of that virtue and holiness that is acceptable in the sight of God?

The whole book of james goes a long way to lay this out for us.
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Peter tells us how to make our Calling and Election...sure
[QUOTE Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
][/QUOTE]

 

[OldRegular]

So you are either concluding that men like myself, Wesley, CS Lewis, AW Tozer, Billy Graham, JRR Tolkien and many others were not 'one of his own' OR that these men all freely chose to reject Calvinism (by which you are admitting that libertarian freedom is possible).

Which one?

Your premise is still wrong. It could be that these men simply did not understand Scripture.

 

[Benjamin]

thanks EWF, you make a good point.
Depravity is not total in degree, but total in extent. I agree with the caveat about how the term can be misunderstood. I think the term depravity on its own is pretty good since you pretty much have to qualify and explain any descriptor you use anyways...

Nice try...

But whatever you two wish to call it to support your systematic philosophy, it still logically fails in regards to totality of inability vs creaturely volition because humans either have volitional abilities or they do not, both cannot logically be true.

How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg. ~ Abraham Lincoln

Now to qualify and explain “volition” further through a simple logical truth– I’ll suggest you read my signature:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Nice try...

But whatever you two wish to call it to support your systematic philosophy, it still logically fails in regards to totality of inability vs creaturely volition because humans either have volitional abilities or they do not, both cannot logically be true.

How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg. ~ Abraham Lincoln

Now to qualify and explain “volition” further through a simple logical truth– I’ll suggest you read my signature:

:laugh: Keep that up & you will be in line to win the VAN award :tongue3:

 

[Yeshua1]

:laugh: Keep that up & you will be in line to win the VAN award :tongue3:

he would have to include though statements to how illogical and non biblcal calvinism is!

 

[David Michael Harris]

Boring first post. Pointless if you know your Bible.

 

[webdog]

Boring first post. Pointless if you know your Bible.

So instead of engaging in the topic, you merely fire away an ad hominem in questioning Skan's knowledge of the Bible.

Typical.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Boring first post. Pointless if you know your Bible.

Hello Taffy

Can you deall Welsh wrth Spoken ysgrifenedig. Os so, are you Doctrines of Grace in Faith?:smilewinkgrin:

 

[quantumfaith]

So instead of engaging in the topic, you merely fire away an ad hominem in questioning Skan's knowledge of the Bible.

Typical.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[WITBOTL]

it still logically fails in regards to totality of inability vs creaturely volition because humans either have volitional abilities or they do not, both cannot logically be true.

Hello Benjamin,

I think there are some problems with the statement in your signature. Forest Keener in his Grace not Calvinism says:

Man is a free moral agent. By that I mean he acts out of his own volition, and he acts with the realization of moral truths about right and wrong. He knows and he acts, and within accurate limitations is a free moral agent. Now, I do not want you to carry that too far. This truth must not be carried too far in either direction. If you say man is a free moral agent, and you intend to say by that, that he can simply choose that which is spiritually good, or he can choose that which is spiritually bad, and it is strictly up to him, that he may do so without outside constraint or grace, then you are at odds with the most basic principles of the word of God. The word of God definitely denies that. He does not have the ability to rightly perceive spiritual things, (1 Cor. 2:14) and he will always choose the evil. But within the boundaries of that evil, he has a great many options. Will he go out to a house of drunkenness and prostitution on Sunday, or will he take his family to a picnic at the lake? One of these is surely a better activity than the other. One is more immoral than the other. It is very obvious to anyone who will think, that they are not equal. But they are both wrong, for on that day he should take his family to the house of God, and there he should worship. And even if he does take his family to the house of God and he is yet in that fallen condition, then he is doing even that for himself, and it remains wickedness. So he has all kinds of options within his fallen limitations, but they are still the options of a fallen creature. Can he, on the other hand, act in such a way that he would please God? No! “For without faith it is impossible to please God,” and faith is the fruit of the spirit. No, he cannot do that. But within the realm of who he is, the kind of person, the kind of being that he is, he can act with all kinds of personal freedom...

...the doctrine of human depravity is not a teaching of total, moral incapability. In other words, sound teachers of human depravity are not saying, that man cannot do anything that is morally good. When someone claims that this is being taught they are caricaturing the doctrine, or they are representing a very small minority of its teachers...

...So we are not saying that a man who is a depraved creature is morally incapable, in a total sense, at all. What I want to establish is this: He has a total, spiritual incapability toward God. That is, he cannot do anything that has a real and a proper purpose in the glory of God. Once again, “for without faith it is impossible to please him.” Faith is a gift of God. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. Faith is not an attribute of the fallen creature. It just simply is not, he has total, spiritual incapability toward God.

The point being that when you say that a Calvinist denies volition you are mischaracterizing the doctrine. Furthermore, your signature says you define Free will as volition but that is incomplete. Volition (in the common and accepted "Websters" understanding of the word) is "The faculty or power of using one's will" In the psychological sense it is defined as: "the cognitive process by which one decides on a particular course of action." Free will on the other hand by necessity also concerns whether there are constraints upon that volition. This is where I suggest the will is not free in man. The constraints upon his will are governed by his nature as sinful creature at enmity with God.

There is a difference between total incapability to choose any moral good and a total incapability to choose a course of action that has in its purpose solely the glory of God. I hope you can see the difference.

You see, according to your definition volition is already made void due to his response determined by the irresistible effect of his sinful nature from which he cannot outrun.

 

[WITBOTL]

Earth Wind and Fire,

I should have pointed out that my earlier quote was from James Petigru Boyce, not James Montgomery Boyce...

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello Benjamin,

I think there are some problems with the statement in your signature. Forest Keener in his Grace not Calvinism says:



The point being that when you say that a Calvinist denies volition you are mischaracterizing the doctrine. Furthermore, your signature says you define Free will as volition but that is incomplete. Volition (in the common and accepted "Websters" understanding of the word) is "The faculty or power of using one's will" In the psychological sense it is defined as: "the cognitive process by which one decides on a particular course of action." Free will on the other hand by necessity also concerns whether there are constraints upon that volition. This is where I suggest the will is not free in man. The constraints upon his will are governed by his nature as sinful creature at enmity with God.

There is a difference between total incapability to choose any moral good and a total incapability to choose a course of action that has in its purpose solely the glory of God. I hope you can see the difference.

You see, according to your definition volition is already made void due to his response determined by the irresistible effect of his sinful nature from which he cannot outrun.

:thumbsup::applause::thumbs::applause:

 

[David Michael Harris]

So instead of engaging in the topic, you merely fire away an ad hominem in questioning Skan's knowledge of the Bible.

Typical.

Arguing on things like this is just chasing tails though. I did not mean disrespect but it gets nowhere. Apologize anyway if I was rude.