“I was predestined to be an Arminian or I chose to be a Calvinist.”

[HeirofSalvation]

From WLC: I agree with him on this.

Universal causal determinism cannot be rationally affirmed: There is a sort of dizzying, self-defeating character to determinism. For if one comes to believe that determinism is true, one has to believe that the reason he has come to believe it is simply that he was determined to do so. One has not in fact been able to weigh the arguments pro and con and freely make up one’s mind on that basis. The difference between the person who weighs the arguments for determinism and rejects them and the person who weighs them and accepts them is wholly that one was determined by causal factors outside himself to believe and the other not to believe. When you come to realize that your decision to believe in determinism was itself determined and that even your present realization of that fact right now is likewise determined, a sort of vertigo sets in, for everything that you think, even this very thought itself, is outside your control. Determinism could be true; but it is very hard to see how it could ever be rationally affirmed, since its affirmation undermines the rationality of its affirmation.

This is one of many reasons that I find Calvinism to be untenable....There is one and only one real agent in the Reformed schema. Regardless of one's way of parsing words, there is only one causal agent in the Universe in that schema, and that is God...not only in reference to salvation, but in the process of sanctification as well. If the Reformed view is correct....then the only one with whom we might reasonably take umbrage that all are not Calvinists, would be the only causal agent in the Universe, and that would be God himself. One cannot reasonably blame (so to speak) any non-Calvinists for holding to the views they hold; And to take umbrage at a non-Calvinist for being a non-Calvinist is essentially to call God's wisdom and purposes into question. This is a fatal flaw in Calvinism IMO.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Placate?! That's a hoot. Calvinists don't want to be placated. We're not seeking common ground with Arminians beyond what already exists.

And that common ground is Christ has died, Christ has risen & Christ will come again.:thumbsup:

 

[SovereignMercy]

From WLC: I agree with him on this.


This is one of many reasons that I find Calvinism to be untenable....There is one and only one real agent in the Reformed schema. Regardless of one's way of parsing words, there is only one causal agent in the Universe in that schema, and that is God...not only in reference to salvation, but in the process of sanctification as well. If the Reformed view is correct....then the only one with whom we might reasonably take umbrage that all are not Calvinists, would be the only causal agent in the Universe, and that would be God himself. One cannot reasonably blame (so to speak) any non-Calvinists for holding to the views they hold; And to take umbrage at a non-Calvinist for being a non-Calvinist is essentially to call God's wisdom and purposes into question. This is a fatal flaw in Calvinism IMO.

You are correct, your problem is with the eternal God and believing all of His word, not with us. You all can agree with one another all you want. We agree with the true God.

Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but to Your name give glory, because of Your mercy, because of Your truth. Why should the Gentiles say, "so where is their God?" But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.

For the LORD has chosen Jacob for Himself, Israel for His special treasure. For I know that the LORD is great, and our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the LORD pleases He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deep places.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

From WLC: I agree with him on this.


This is one of many reasons that I find Calvinism to be untenable....There is one and only one real agent in the Reformed schema. Regardless of one's way of parsing words, there is only one causal agent in the Universe in that schema, and that is God...not only in reference to salvation, but in the process of sanctification as well. If the Reformed view is correct....then the only one with whom we might reasonably take umbrage that all are not Calvinists, would be the only causal agent in the Universe, and that would be God himself. One cannot reasonably blame (so to speak) any non-Calvinists for holding to the views they hold; And to take umbrage at a non-Calvinist for being a non-Calvinist is essentially to call God's wisdom and purposes into question. This is a fatal flaw in Calvinism IMO.

Nonsense....you are forgetting that the creature is responsible for his or her own sin. You again appeal to what you perceive to be a fatalistic heretical doctrine that Calvinists & believers in Salvation by Grace believers do not hold to. If you wish to argue your point then I suggest you bring your preconceived notions to a "Hyper Calvinistic" believers....not people who hold to Doctrines of Grace as salvation theology & are generally otherwise baptistic in their beliefs.

 

[MorseOp]

And that common ground is Christ has died, Christ has risen & Christ will come again.:thumbsup:

That is about it. Calvinists and Arminians disagree on more things than they agree on. Speaking only for myself I am fine with that. I have absolutely no desire to seek unity at the expense of truth. That does not mean that I carry a chip on my shoulder, always in search of a fight. We debate in forums like this, but in real life I extend kindness and courtesy towards those I disagree with while maintaining my convictions.

 

[Van]

I'm sorry but you have not studied Calvinistic theologians nearly enough to truly formulate your opinions completely & properly.

Have you read any early Puritans & Calvinists, say Cotton, Owen, Edwards, Whitefield, Bunyan or John Preston? Probably not, right. Preston for example wrote a book revered by Calvinists, "Marrow of Modern Divinity" in which he states that the foundation of the free offering of the gospel is not election (AGAIN FOR EMPHASIS: THE FOUNDATION OF THE FREE OFFERING OF THE GOSPEL IS NOT ELECTION). The foundation for the gospel is in Christ's promise to save all who come to Him in faith.

Now in addition to John Preston, you will find very similar teachings in the books by RC Sproul, John Piper, Sinclair Ferguson & Martyn Lloyd-Jones. All these gentlemen will tell you that we do not offer Christ on the basis of the person who hears the offer is elect....but we offer Christ exclusively on the basis that He is able to save them who come to Him. Its just that simple.
Jesus Christ is able to save all who come to God through Him in faith.

I am sorry but your use of ad homenim argumentation shows you have not studied our Lord and Master enough.

Any blowhard can make these kind of generalized and frankly insulting comments. EWF, you contribute nothing with chestnuts like opponents do not understand Calvinism.

I have read many Calvinist writers including John Calvin and A. W. Pink. Their positions in many areas are correct and insightful. But they were mistaken in their views of the TULI of the Tulip.

I have demonstrated from scripture why Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture. You have no rebuttal, so you say I am ignorant and closed minded. Such contributions are nothing to write home about.

And as far as your strawman argument which misrepresents my position, it is without merit. No quote will be forthcoming where I suggest Calvinism preaches to only the elect. Jesus teaches we should cling to the truth, btw.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am sorry but your use of ad homenim argumentation shows you have not studied our Lord and Master enough.

Any blowhard can make these kind of generalized and frankly insulting comments. EWF, you contribute nothing with chestnuts like opponents do not understand Calvinism.

I have read many Calvinist writers including John Calvin and A. W. Pink. Their positions in many areas are correct and insightful. But they were mistaken in their views of the TULI of the Tulip.

I have demonstrated from scripture why Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture. You have no rebuttal, so you say I am ignorant and closed minded. Such contributions are nothing to write home about.

And as far as your strawman argument which misrepresents my position, it is without merit. No quote will be forthcoming where I suggest Calvinism preaches to only the elect. Jesus teaches we should cling to the truth, btw.

And so this is how you respond.....Funny & speaking of blow-hards, your pattern is merely bombastic deflection & acting out as a petulant child would. I cant reason with your kinda person so I will simply put you on ignore like most others do & not even attempt to engage you. Keep sticking your fingers in your ears ....appears to be one of your best talents. Im done with the likes of you.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Nonsense....you are forgetting that the creature is responsible for his or her own sin.

I said NOTHING about sin....the thread isn't about sin so I didn't mention it.

You again appeal to what you perceive to be a fatalistic heretical doctrine that Calvinists & believers in Salvation by Grace believers do not hold to. If you wish to argue your point then I suggest you bring your preconceived notions to a "Hyper Calvinistic" believers....

I said nothing about "Fatalism", nor am I suggesting that "Calvinists" are "fatalists", and what I did speak about is applicable whether one is a "hyper-Cal" or not. You are not reading what I/others who understand the argument in the OP are trying to tell you.

not people who hold to Doctrines of Grace as salvation theology & are generally otherwise baptistic in their beliefs.

Of course they do....that is, at least on "Baptist-Board" anyway right? Craig's point....about not being able to "Rationally affirm" determinism....is what I am speaking of, nothing more, nothing less, I think you miss what Craig was saying completely.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

You are correct, your problem is with the eternal God and believing all of His word, not with us. You all can agree with one another all you want. We agree with the true God.

Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but to Your name give glory, because of Your mercy, because of Your truth. Why should the Gentiles say, "so where is their God?" But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.

For the LORD has chosen Jacob for Himself, Israel for His special treasure. For I know that the LORD is great, and our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the LORD pleases He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deep places.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

What in the WORLD does all this have to do with either the OP or my post??? Did you simply not understand what Craig said? or with what I said? It appears you have no idea what we are suggesting to you. This response honestly sounds like it came pre-packaged in a can and is utterly irrelevant to anything I said. It's just an un-related sermonette which is in no way a response to my post.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I said NOTHING about sin....the thread isn't about sin so I didn't mention it.



I said nothing about "Fatalism", nor am I suggesting that "Calvinists" are "fatalists", and what I did speak about is applicable whether one is a "hyper-Cal" or not. You are not reading what I/others who understand the argument in the OP are trying to tell you.



Of course they do....that is, at least on "Baptist-Board" anyway right? Craig's point....about not being able to "Rationally affirm" determinism....is what I am speaking of, nothing more, nothing less, I think you miss what Craig was saying completely.

Who is Craig?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is about it. Calvinists and Arminians disagree on more things than they agree on. Speaking only for myself I am fine with that. I have absolutely no desire to seek unity at the expense of truth. That does not mean that I carry a chip on my shoulder, always in search of a fight. We debate in forums like this, but in real life I extend kindness and courtesy towards those I disagree with while maintaining my convictions.

Totally :thumbs:

 

[12strings]

From WLC: I agree with him on this.

This is one of many reasons that I find Calvinism to be untenable....There is one and only one real agent in the Reformed schema. Regardless of one's way of parsing words, there is only one causal agent in the Universe in that schema, and that is God...not only in reference to salvation, but in the process of sanctification as well. If the Reformed view is correct....then the only one with whom we might reasonably take umbrage that all are not Calvinists, would be the only causal agent in the Universe, and that would be God himself. One cannot reasonably blame (so to speak) any non-Calvinists for holding to the views they hold; And to take umbrage at a non-Calvinist for being a non-Calvinist is essentially to call God's wisdom and purposes into question. This is a fatal flaw in Calvinism IMO.

What if the argument goes like this:

God creates the world good, knowing that Satan, and Adam will freely sin of their own volition...even though he could have created the world differently in which no one would ever sin...knowing this, and that Adam's sin then passed to every descendant so that no one else has the type of free will that Adam had...they WILL sin...God also knew that because of our sinful nature no one would respond to his free offer of salvation, even upon hearing of What Jesus did...unless supernaturally drawn by the Holy Spirit...so knowing none would come, for reasons beyond us, he elects some and irresistibly draws them.

I don't know if this is calvinism, I suppose it is because of the election thing...but it seems to be a possibility.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What if the argument goes like this:

God creates the world good, knowing that Satan, and Adam will freely sin of their own volition...even though he could have created the world differently in which no one would ever sin...knowing this, and that Adam's sin then passed to every descendant so that no one else has the type of free will that Adam had...they WILL sin...God also knew that because of our sinful nature no one would respond to his free offer of salvation, even upon hearing of What Jesus did...unless supernaturally drawn by the Holy Spirit...so knowing none would come, for reasons beyond us, he elects some and irresistibly draws them.

I don't know if this is calvinism, I suppose it is because of the election thing...but it seems to be a possibility.

Dratt....there is that "Sin" thing again.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Aaron]

Ever and anon the argument is "Why doth He yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will?"

It was God's will that man be corrupted and fall into sin. It was also God's will that He send His Son to suffer the punishment of sin. Sounds a bit foolish to the carnal mind. Sounds a bit unfair too, but whom will you petition for a redress of the grievance?

The One Who ordained it to be thus?

 

[psalms109:31]

What if the argument goes like this:

God creates the world good, knowing that Satan, and Adam will freely sin of their own volition...even though he could have created the world differently in which no one would ever sin...knowing this, and that Adam's sin then passed to every descendant so that no one else has the type of free will that Adam had...they WILL sin...God also knew that because of our sinful nature no one would respond to his free offer of salvation, even upon hearing of What Jesus did...unless supernaturally drawn by the Holy Spirit...so knowing none would come, for reasons beyond us, he elects some and irresistibly draws them.

I don't know if this is calvinism, I suppose it is because of the election thing...but it seems to be a possibility.

I think we all are trying to figure out God. A Creator creates that is what He does and we know by the way He created us and His angels that what He created has a free agency. The scripture points and reveals God and also what He has made. This scripture talks not only of Lucifer, but also King Tyre.

Ezekiel 28
...I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”


11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”

Election will not go against the free agency that God put in us and it takes the word of God from the Holy Spirit to wake it up.

 

[MorseOp]

What if the argument goes like this:

God creates the world good, knowing that Satan, and Adam will freely sin of their own volition...even though he could have created the world differently in which no one would ever sin...knowing this, and that Adam's sin then passed to every descendant so that no one else has the type of free will that Adam had...they WILL sin...God also knew that because of our sinful nature no one would respond to his free offer of salvation, even upon hearing of What Jesus did...unless supernaturally drawn by the Holy Spirit...so knowing none would come, for reasons beyond us, he elects some and irresistibly draws them.

I don't know if this is calvinism, I suppose it is because of the election thing...but it seems to be a possibility.

Scripture tells us that God elects some for the praise and glory of His grace (Eph. 1:6). That is God's motivation; Scripture does not go beyond that. Scripture does not speculate as to why God allowed Adam to sin and the drama of the cross to take place, except to say that it is for the praise and glory of His grace.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Ever and anon the argument is "Why doth He yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will?"

It was God's will that man be corrupted and fall into sin. It was also God's will that He send His Son to suffer the punishment of sin. Sounds a bit foolish to the carnal mind. Sounds a bit unfair too, but whom will you petition for a redress of the grievance?

The One Who ordained it to be thus?

Not like you think....Only a Calvinist would think that anyone is interested in petitioning for a "redress" of any grievances...We don't have these (so-called) "grievances" because we don't think your Theology is sound. Thus, we have nothing whatsoever to complain about. :wavey: IF, the "argument" is "ever and anon" blah blah blah...then it can (by definition) only be on the part of a Calvinist who actually holds that untenable position.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Who is Craig?

The guy whose essay I quoted in my first post:

From WLC: I agree with him on this.

William Lane Craig

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not like you think....Only a Calvinist would think that anyone is interested in petitioning for a "redress" of any grievances...We don't have these (so-called) "grievances" because we don't think your Theology is sound. Thus, we have nothing whatsoever to complain about. :wavey: IF, the "argument" is "ever and anon" blah blah blah...then it can (by definition) only be on the part of a Calvinist who actually holds that untenable position.

your operative word here is "think" ....to quote my late mother, "Son, you either "Know" or you "Dont Know"..... You get my drift

 

[InTheLight]

I believe you might actually be unwittingly arguing my position.

If these people were unsaved as you state then their faith did not save them ie. they did not possess saving faith. The faith they had was not that faith which is the fruit of the Spirit. This is the whole point, Saving faith is a gift from God, a fruit of the Spirit and not an attribute of a fallen creature. Would you really argue that these people had the faith that saves, but were not saved?

No, I would argue that they were not saved but the moment they had faith that Jesus was the Son of God and could heal their friend (or relative) they had saving faith.

My point is THAT kind of faith is a gift from God and a fruit of the Spirit.

So explain Hebrews 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

If, as you say, faith is a gift of God then this verse means that God rewards people with faith so that He can please Himself.