1 Cor. 1 and God's calling

[Allan]

1. It seems best to me to take Jesus' words here as the same as those in Luke 22:31-32, with John filling in the deal about Judas.

2. So the prayer is not about physical protection, but spiritual.

I see, so now you have me ignoring CHrist and discarding Luke and John. My, my.

But I can see where your problem comes into play; where it appears one can loose their salvation then since 'kept' it is about spiritual salvation. Judus was chosen and then he fell.

Or that he was kept by Christ and then fell.

However, what I was contending (and apparently you missed it) was that 'kept' is NOT spiritual regarding Christ's usage of it in John 17 because Jesus states He has kept all that the Father gave Him and none are lost except for Judas.

This is the scripture that nullifies 'kept' as meaning saved. If it means saved them please explain why Judas looses his salvation.

 

[Allan]

BTW, What is it in this text or for that matter any other, that gives you the idea that Judas perishing is a physical one that points to his spiritual perishing?

UHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Notice, PLEASE, in my post I said YOUR reference to perishing. I didn't not state a scripture as you did not either. You asked a question I was mearly answering. But if you were citing a verse then I missed it, since I am on tonight more to stay awake than anything else. So if I did miss it, I appologize.

I was merly using it illistrating a point, of which you apparently did not get.
The manner of his death in conjuction with prophesy regarding it, and the fact he did not continue with the other disciples who were ordained to good fruit and others as well. but anyway....

 

[TCGreek]

UHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Notice, PLEASE, in my post I said YOUR reference to perishing. I didn't not state a scripture as you did not either. You asked a question I was mearly answering. But if you were citing a verse then I missed it, since I am on tonight more to stay awake than anything else. So if I did miss it, I appologize.

I was merly using it illistrating a point, of which you apparently did not get.
The manner of his death in conjuction with prophesy regarding it, and the fact he did not continue with the other disciples who were ordained to good fruit and others as well. but anyway....

Maybe I need a third person to help me understand what you are really saying. :laugh:

 

[Allan]

Maybe I need a third person to help me understand what you are really saying. :laugh:

No it is not you, it is me. I'm so tired and I just got off work.

I was incorrect and admit such regarding the meaning of 'kept' not including the spiritual sense also.

But my question is - what warrents the spiritual sense in verse 12? Not that it can't be implied and direct. But if it indeed must be seen in the spiritual sense we DO have a problem with the sentence structure showing Judas was indeed part of those given to Christ.

So I will ask this instead regarding the spiritual.

Since it is contrasting one group from another which Christ had. We find the scripture states Christ kept them (meaning all of them)...that thou gavest me...and none of them is lost, but/except the one headed for destruction..; (KJV)
OR

...I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. - NASB

OR

...I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction - ESV

Why can we NOT postulate this single giving of men (which assumedly includes Judas because of the sentence structure) be that God gives all of these to Christ but they have different purposes which seperate the two groups?

If that be the case it makes more sense to see the 'but/except which includes Judas there only regarding those whom the Father gave to Christ, but NOT including him in those who recieve and believed Christ.


Anyway, I appolgize for confusion and frustration on this due to my part.

Editted above.

 

[Allan]

This is deleted

 

[Brother Bob]

delete...........

 

[skypair]

... the message is received as "Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God". I saw this as evidence of a special call for the elect in which the gospel is always received as truth.
What say ye?

Actually, I don't see that. I DO see that the POWER spoken of is unto eternal life whereas the WISDOM is unto an aboding life on this earth.

As to "effecacious call," I don't see that issue expressed in this passage. The passage expressly tells about Jews and Greeks, not elect and non-elect.

skypair

 

[Isaiah40:28]

I appreciate your views, but I don't see you really interacting with the phrasing of verses 23-24.
Both groups have two sets of reactions.
Jews
1) stumbling block group
2) Christ the power of God group
Gentiles
1) the gospel is foolishness group
2) the wisdom of God group

Paul attributes both Group #2s to the call of God to show that that is what is the difference in the reaction.
The general call to believe the gospel is evident in that it is preached to all groups, but the special call is issued to those within those groups and thus the message is received favorably by those who received that call.

The Jews who are part of the called in verse 24 see Christ as the power of God and not as a curse hanging on a tree. The Gentiles who are part of the called in verse 24, see the wisdom of God in the gospel, not foolishness.

And the only difference contrasted between all the groups is set apart by the phrase "but to those whom God has called".

bumped to get back to the OP

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Ok, I NEVER said Jesus prayer applies to Judas. I said that the 'kept' Jesus speaks to simply refers to physically.

In Jesus OWN Prayer regarding those He kept, Judas is included but it is not in the sense Judas was a Child of God, only that he was kept from death.
Context EXPRESSES this in the passage I quoted, where Jesus said I have kept them ALL and none are lost...but/except Judas.
But what about the bigger context established back in verse 6 about who the Father had given Him?


Who does the all exclude here? None.


Who said Judas was chosen for salvation.

Obviously there is MORE than one blanket meaning for the word 'chosen':

All twelve were chosen but were they chosen to salvation? No.

Or here:

Again, were they asking God to tell them between the two which to God would save? Of course not. We must come to the scriptures looking at context first, then theology, then context again, not vise versa.

Even Christ Himself is called 'Chosen'.

Okay, I don't really want to get into debating another passage so I've held off on going to John 6, but since Jesus' prayer is directly connected to doing His Father' will/work, then it's unavoidable. And since the same language of the Father "giving" a group to His Son and the Son "keeping" a group from the Father is employed in John 6 and John 17, the correlation cannot be dismissed.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Both elements are present here:
1) the Father giving a group to the Son, and
2) the Son keeping in those that are given to Him

John 6:38-39
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

So Jesus claims that He has been given a mandate from the Father to do the Father's will. And that will is that the Son should not lose "none of all" that the Father had given Him. Notice, Jesus' use of the the word, "lose". Jesus will not lose any of the all that the Father has given Him. That's what the Father's will is and that's what Jesus intends to fulfill. None should be lost of all that the Father has given Him. That is important to remember when we get to John 17:12.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Again, the similar phrasing is used, but this time, John emphasizes the faith of the one who believes and does not repeat the giving of the Father to His Son.

So John 6 describes God's sovereignty in salvation by saying there is a group who have been given by the Father to the Son and this group will inevitably come to the Son and be kept or preserved by Him and the prayer of Jesus in John 17 refers to this theme.

And since in verse 40 of John 6, John also speaks of man's responsibility(not LFW) to believe in the Son, the idea of compatibilism is easily established and maintained in this passage.
But that's for another thread.

So over to John 17 again, starting with verses 1 and 2.

1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

So right at the beginning of Jesus' prayer, He speaks about the Father's will and the authority that Has been given to Him to carry it out. That He(Jesus) may give eternal life to all those You(the Father) have given Him.

John 17:6
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

So the ones that the Father gave are the ones who will come to Christ. They were the Father's to give and He has given them to
His Son and as a result, they have obeyed the Father's word.
The 11 true disciples are part of this group who have been given to the Son by the Father. Their belief on the Father's Word spoken by the Son is evidence of this.

John 17:8
For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

While their belief does not mean that they have become "Christians" in the full sense of the term as seen defined throughout the book of Acts, but they have been set apart from the world and will indeed be the foundation of the church.

John 17:11-12
11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

So in verse 11, Jesus prays for protection for them as He will no longer be in the world, but they will be. And they will be undergoing much temptation and persecution in the days to follow, so God's name is invoked for their protection.

Now verse 12.
"While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me". And again, Jesus makes reference to a name, this time He says it is a name given Him by the Father. So again, He invokes the name of God as the means by which He protected this group.
Safe from what is where we disagree.
You say it is say from premature death and this includes Judas. Jesus needed Judas to be physically protected so that he would be able to fulfill the work of Satan prophesied by Scripture.

I see it as spiritual protection, which does not include Judas.
His reference to having protected them and kept them safe is exactly what He promised He would do to those that the Father gave Him back in John 6:37,39.
And in the second part of verse 12, He states that He has lost none, except one.
He has completely fulfilled the Father's will given to Him, by protecting and keeping those that Father gave Him. He has not failed the Father in doing the work that was assigned to Him, to keep all the Father had given Him and He will raise them up at the last day.

And since Judas is the exception to this "keeping", it must follow that Jesus never intended to preserve Judas because Judas was the son of perdition all along. His choosing was not for salvation(and I agree with you on your comments on that word), it was for fullfillment of Scripture and purpose, which we both agree was fully known to Christ.
So if Christ loses Judas, it must mean that He was never intended to be part of the kept or else Jesus failed to preserve those that were given to Him.
That's why I don't see Judas as being part of those in verse 12 whom Jesus protected and kept safe.
Jesus' prayer here for his disciples must exclude Judas, or we would have to conclude that Jesus failed in the asignment that was given to Him, to keep all that the Father has given Him.
And since we know that's not true, then it seems right to say that Jesus was never given Judas in the salvific way that John 6 and John 17 speak of.
Judas wasn't lost because Jesus stopped keeping him safe. He was lost because he was the son of perdition and to fulfill prophesy.

EDITTED IN --> you never answered my question before. Did you ever pray for Mr. Dawkins as God urged you to?

Yes.

 

[psalms109:31]

Meek and humble

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

The simple truth is too complicated for the wise and learned. That is why it is foolishness.

God has decided to hide the truth from the wise and learned.

When we come to Jesus we must come to Him as a child. Born again ready to start our new life with Jesus. Let Him teach us and guide us.

Proverbs 3: 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths]

Whosoever believes shall be saved, but to enter the kingdom of heaven we must be born again.

No matter how hard we try to show the world whosoever can come to the Lord, the wise and learned will make this simple message foolishness. You just got to forgive them for they know not what they do.

Just come to Jesus as a child, begin again and let Jesus guide you.

God the Father has chosen to keep the meek and humble who trust in the name of our Lord Jesus. These are His chosen.

 

[Allan]

Now verse 12.
"While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me". And again, Jesus makes reference to a name, this time He says it is a name given Him by the Father. So again, He invokes the name of God as the means by which He protected this group.
Safe from what is where we disagree.
You say it is say from premature death and this includes Judas. Jesus needed Judas to be physically protected so that he would be able to fulfill the work of Satan prophesied by Scripture.

I see it as spiritual protection, which does not include Judas.
His reference to having protected them and kept them safe is exactly what He promised He would do to those that the Father gave Him back in John 6:37,39.
And in the second part of verse 12, He states that He has lost none, except one.
He has completely fulfilled the Father's will given to Him, by protecting and keeping those that Father gave Him. He has not failed the Father in doing the work that was assigned to Him, to keep all the Father had given Him and He will raise them up at the last day.

I don't dispute this, but I argued from a different point. One that stated those whom the Father gave Jesus included two groups. Those whom the Father gave Jesus (all of them) as identified in John 17 because Jesus even states 'those whom you 'gave' me', establishing the full group. I agree here, but it is in verse twelve something is revealed that portrays not just a spiritual keeping but a physical one as well. And since we know that Judas was not apart of the spiritual keeping, THIS keeping refered to by Christ MUSt be different because Jesus states he has kept all the Father gave him and NONE are lost EXCEPT ..."
But my question is - what warrents the spiritual sense in verse 12? Not that it can't be implied and direct. But if it indeed must be seen in the spiritual sense we DO have a problem with the sentence structure showing Judas was indeed part of those given to Christ.

So I will ask this instead regarding the spiritual.

Since it is contrasting one group from another which Christ had. We find the scripture states Christ kept them ...that thou gavest me (meaning all of them)..and none of them is lost, but/except the Son of Perdition..; (paraphrased KJV)
OR

...I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. - NASB

OR

...I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction - ESV

Why can we not postulate this single giving of men (which definately includes Judas because of the sentence structure) be that God gave all of them to Christ but they have different purposes which seperate the two groups?

If that be the case it makes more sense to see the 'but/except which includes Judas there only regarding those whom the Father gave to Christ, but NOT including him in those who recieve and believed Christ.

And since Judas is the exception to this "keeping", it must follow that Jesus never intended to preserve Judas because Judas was the son of perdition all along.

So you DO contend that Judas was apart of those the Father God the Son, but that he was kept for another purpose? (presumably to fulfill his part in the prophesy)

His choosing was not for salvation(and I agree with you on your comments on that word), it was for fullfillment of Scripture and purpose, which we both agree was fully known to Christ.
So if Christ loses Judas, it must mean that He was never intended to be part of the kept or else Jesus failed to preserve those that were given to Him.

You seem to be asserting that Judas was given to Christ with the others but for a different purpose. Though all were given to Him at once not all were given for the same purposes. To that I agree and is what I have been trying to say.

Thus verse 12 SPECIFIES or Establishes that Christ has kept them all, and lost none the Father gave except for Judas. Please notice that in the verse itself 'kept' is used differently than for 'lost'. One is a physical sense including those who are not lost and the other is in the physical sense revealing who IS lost.

That's why I don't see Judas as being part of those in verse 12 whom Jesus protected and kept safe.

Then please explain the sentence structure of verse 12 which places Judas as one of those whom Christ kept but lost so as to fulfill prophesy. I'm not being rude here but seriously want to see you explain away either in the English or Greek (I can read both) how 'not loosing one except for' does not place Judas squarely inside that group given by the Father.

And since we know that's not true, then it seems right to say that Jesus was never given Judas in the salvific way that John 6 and John 17 speak of.
Judas wasn't lost because Jesus stopped keeping him safe. He was lost because he was the son of perdition and to fulfill prophesy.

No. It might 'seem' right in your eyes but you still have the glaring problem with the scripture that states in essense - All that you have given me I have kept ... and none are lost except for..."

What seems right and what the passage actually says' diverge. HEY - I'm not 100% sold myself on the idea though I am strongly arguing for because I want to see something that directly disputes it. And I do have to take scripture for what it states and this HERE is my problem the plain reading of the verse and it's specific sentence structure..

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Allan, I've created a new thread for this ongoing discussion.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Originally Posted by Isaiah40:28
I appreciate your views, but I don't see you really interacting with the phrasing of verses 23-24.
Both groups have two sets of reactions.
Jews
1) stumbling block group
2) Christ the power of God group
Gentiles
1) the gospel is foolishness group
2) the wisdom of God group

Paul attributes both Group #2s to the call of God to show that that is what is the difference in the reaction.
The general call to believe the gospel is evident in that it is preached to all groups, but the special call is issued to those within those groups and thus the message is received favorably by those who received that call.

The Jews who are part of the called in verse 24 see Christ as the power of God and not as a curse hanging on a tree. The Gentiles who are part of the called in verse 24, see the wisdom of God in the gospel, not foolishness.

And the only difference contrasted between all the groups is set apart by the phrase "but to those whom God has called".

back to the OP

 

[Allan]

Allan, I've created a new thread for this ongoing discussion.

Cool, thanks :wavey:

 

[psalms109:31]

Mercy

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

The simple truth is too complicated for the wise and learned. That is why it is foolishness.

God has decided to hide the truth from the wise and learned.

When we come to Jesus we must come to Him as a child. Born again ready to start our new life with Jesus. Let Him teach us and guide us.

Proverbs 3: 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths]

Whosoever believes shall be saved, but to enter the kingdom of heaven we must be born again.

No matter how hard we try to show the world whosoever can come to the Lord, the wise and learned will make this simple message foolishness. You just got to forgive them for they know not what they do.

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Luke 11:52
"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

Just come to Jesus as a child, begin again and let Jesus guide you.

God the Father has chosen to keep the meek and humble who trust in the name of our Lord Jesus. These are His chosen.