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1 Cor. 1 and God's calling

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Isaiah40:28, Oct 19, 2007.

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  1. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I see, so now you have me ignoring CHrist and discarding Luke and John. My, my.

    But I can see where your problem comes into play; where it appears one can loose their salvation then since 'kept' it is about spiritual salvation. Judus was chosen and then he fell.

    Or that he was kept by Christ and then fell.

    However, what I was contending (and apparently you missed it) was that 'kept' is NOT spiritual regarding Christ's usage of it in John 17 because Jesus states He has kept all that the Father gave Him and none are lost except for Judas.

    This is the scripture that nullifies 'kept' as meaning saved. If it means saved them please explain why Judas looses his salvation.
     
    #101 Allan, Oct 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2007
  2. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    UHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    Notice, PLEASE, in my post I said YOUR reference to perishing. I didn't not state a scripture as you did not either. You asked a question I was mearly answering. But if you were citing a verse then I missed it, since I am on tonight more to stay awake than anything else. So if I did miss it, I appologize.

    I was merly using it illistrating a point, of which you apparently did not get.
    The manner of his death in conjuction with prophesy regarding it, and the fact he did not continue with the other disciples who were ordained to good fruit and others as well. but anyway....
     
    #102 Allan, Oct 20, 2007
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Maybe I need a third person to help me understand what you are really saying. :laugh:
     
    #103 TCGreek, Oct 20, 2007
  4. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    No it is not you, it is me. I'm so tired and I just got off work.

    I was incorrect and admit such regarding the meaning of 'kept' not including the spiritual sense also.

    But my question is - what warrents the spiritual sense in verse 12? Not that it can't be implied and direct. But if it indeed must be seen in the spiritual sense we DO have a problem with the sentence structure showing Judas was indeed part of those given to Christ.

    So I will ask this instead regarding the spiritual.

    Since it is contrasting one group from another which Christ had. We find the scripture states Christ kept them (meaning all of them)...that thou gavest me...and none of them is lost, but/except the one headed for destruction..; (KJV)
    OR
    OR
    Why can we NOT postulate this single giving of men (which assumedly includes Judas because of the sentence structure) be that God gives all of these to Christ but they have different purposes which seperate the two groups?

    If that be the case it makes more sense to see the 'but/except which includes Judas there only regarding those whom the Father gave to Christ, but NOT including him in those who recieve and believed Christ.


    Anyway, I appolgize for confusion and frustration on this due to my part.

    Editted above.
     
    #104 Allan, Oct 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2007
  5. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    This is deleted
     
    #105 Allan, Oct 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2007
  6. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    delete...........
     
    #106 Brother Bob, Oct 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2007
  7. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Actually, I don't see that. I DO see that the POWER spoken of is unto eternal life whereas the WISDOM is unto an aboding life on this earth.

    As to "effecacious call," I don't see that issue expressed in this passage. The passage expressly tells about Jews and Greeks, not elect and non-elect.

    skypair
     
    #107 skypair, Oct 20, 2007
  8. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    bumped to get back to the OP
     
    #108 Isaiah40:28, Oct 22, 2007
  9. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    Okay, I don't really want to get into debating another passage so I've held off on going to John 6, but since Jesus' prayer is directly connected to doing His Father' will/work, then it's unavoidable. And since the same language of the Father "giving" a group to His Son and the Son "keeping" a group from the Father is employed in John 6 and John 17, the correlation cannot be dismissed.

    Both elements are present here:
    1) the Father giving a group to the Son, and
    2) the Son keeping in those that are given to Him

    So Jesus claims that He has been given a mandate from the Father to do the Father's will. And that will is that the Son should not lose "none of all" that the Father had given Him. Notice, Jesus' use of the the word, "lose". Jesus will not lose any of the all that the Father has given Him. That's what the Father's will is and that's what Jesus intends to fulfill. None should be lost of all that the Father has given Him. That is important to remember when we get to John 17:12.
    Again, the similar phrasing is used, but this time, John emphasizes the faith of the one who believes and does not repeat the giving of the Father to His Son.

    So John 6 describes God's sovereignty in salvation by saying there is a group who have been given by the Father to the Son and this group will inevitably come to the Son and be kept or preserved by Him and the prayer of Jesus in John 17 refers to this theme.

    And since in verse 40 of John 6, John also speaks of man's responsibility(not LFW) to believe in the Son, the idea of compatibilism is easily established and maintained in this passage.
    But that's for another thread.

    So over to John 17 again, starting with verses 1 and 2.
    So right at the beginning of Jesus' prayer, He speaks about the Father's will and the authority that Has been given to Him to carry it out. That He(Jesus) may give eternal life to all those You(the Father) have given Him.

    So the ones that the Father gave are the ones who will come to Christ. They were the Father's to give and He has given them to
    His Son and as a result, they have obeyed the Father's word.
    The 11 true disciples are part of this group who have been given to the Son by the Father. Their belief on the Father's Word spoken by the Son is evidence of this.

    While their belief does not mean that they have become "Christians" in the full sense of the term as seen defined throughout the book of Acts, but they have been set apart from the world and will indeed be the foundation of the church.

    So in verse 11, Jesus prays for protection for them as He will no longer be in the world, but they will be. And they will be undergoing much temptation and persecution in the days to follow, so God's name is invoked for their protection.

    Now verse 12.
    "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me". And again, Jesus makes reference to a name, this time He says it is a name given Him by the Father. So again, He invokes the name of God as the means by which He protected this group.
    Safe from what is where we disagree.
    You say it is say from premature death and this includes Judas. Jesus needed Judas to be physically protected so that he would be able to fulfill the work of Satan prophesied by Scripture.

    I see it as spiritual protection, which does not include Judas.
    His reference to having protected them and kept them safe is exactly what He promised He would do to those that the Father gave Him back in John 6:37,39.
    And in the second part of verse 12, He states that He has lost none, except one.
    He has completely fulfilled the Father's will given to Him, by protecting and keeping those that Father gave Him. He has not failed the Father in doing the work that was assigned to Him, to keep all the Father had given Him and He will raise them up at the last day.

    And since Judas is the exception to this "keeping", it must follow that Jesus never intended to preserve Judas because Judas was the son of perdition all along. His choosing was not for salvation(and I agree with you on your comments on that word), it was for fullfillment of Scripture and purpose, which we both agree was fully known to Christ.
    So if Christ loses Judas, it must mean that He was never intended to be part of the kept or else Jesus failed to preserve those that were given to Him.
    That's why I don't see Judas as being part of those in verse 12 whom Jesus protected and kept safe.
    Jesus' prayer here for his disciples must exclude Judas, or we would have to conclude that Jesus failed in the asignment that was given to Him, to keep all that the Father has given Him.
    And since we know that's not true, then it seems right to say that Jesus was never given Judas in the salvific way that John 6 and John 17 speak of.
    Judas wasn't lost because Jesus stopped keeping him safe. He was lost because he was the son of perdition and to fulfill prophesy.
    Yes.
     
    #109 Isaiah40:28, Oct 22, 2007
  10. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Meek and humble

    Zephaniah 3:12
    But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

    Matthew 11:25
    At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

    The simple truth is too complicated for the wise and learned. That is why it is foolishness.

    God has decided to hide the truth from the wise and learned.

    When we come to Jesus we must come to Him as a child. Born again ready to start our new life with Jesus. Let Him teach us and guide us.

    Proverbs 3: 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;

    6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths]

    Whosoever believes shall be saved, but to enter the kingdom of heaven we must be born again.

    No matter how hard we try to show the world whosoever can come to the Lord, the wise and learned will make this simple message foolishness. You just got to forgive them for they know not what they do.

    Just come to Jesus as a child, begin again and let Jesus guide you.

    God the Father has chosen to keep the meek and humble who trust in the name of our Lord Jesus. These are His chosen.
     
    #110 psalms109:31, Oct 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2007
  11. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I don't dispute this, but I argued from a different point. One that stated those whom the Father gave Jesus included two groups. Those whom the Father gave Jesus (all of them) as identified in John 17 because Jesus even states 'those whom you 'gave' me', establishing the full group. I agree here, but it is in verse twelve something is revealed that portrays not just a spiritual keeping but a physical one as well. And since we know that Judas was not apart of the spiritual keeping, THIS keeping refered to by Christ MUSt be different because Jesus states he has kept all the Father gave him and NONE are lost EXCEPT ..."
    But my question is - what warrents the spiritual sense in verse 12? Not that it can't be implied and direct. But if it indeed must be seen in the spiritual sense we DO have a problem with the sentence structure showing Judas was indeed part of those given to Christ.

    So I will ask this instead regarding the spiritual.

    Since it is contrasting one group from another which Christ had. We find the scripture states Christ kept them ...that thou gavest me (meaning all of them)..and none of them is lost, but/except the Son of Perdition..; (paraphrased KJV)
    OR
    OR
    Why can we not postulate this single giving of men (which definately includes Judas because of the sentence structure) be that God gave all of them to Christ but they have different purposes which seperate the two groups?

    If that be the case it makes more sense to see the 'but/except which includes Judas there only regarding those whom the Father gave to Christ, but NOT including him in those who recieve and believed Christ.

    So you DO contend that Judas was apart of those the Father God the Son, but that he was kept for another purpose? (presumably to fulfill his part in the prophesy)

    You seem to be asserting that Judas was given to Christ with the others but for a different purpose. Though all were given to Him at once not all were given for the same purposes. To that I agree and is what I have been trying to say.

    Thus verse 12 SPECIFIES or Establishes that Christ has kept them all, and lost none the Father gave except for Judas. Please notice that in the verse itself 'kept' is used differently than for 'lost'. One is a physical sense including those who are not lost and the other is in the physical sense revealing who IS lost.

    Then please explain the sentence structure of verse 12 which places Judas as one of those whom Christ kept but lost so as to fulfill prophesy. I'm not being rude here but seriously want to see you explain away either in the English or Greek (I can read both) how 'not loosing one except for' does not place Judas squarely inside that group given by the Father.
    No. It might 'seem' right in your eyes but you still have the glaring problem with the scripture that states in essense - All that you have given me I have kept ... and none are lost except for..."

    What seems right and what the passage actually says' diverge. HEY - I'm not 100% sold myself on the idea though I am strongly arguing for because I want to see something that directly disputes it. And I do have to take scripture for what it states and this HERE is my problem the plain reading of the verse and it's specific sentence structure..
     
    #111 Allan, Oct 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2007
  12. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    Allan, I've created a new thread for this ongoing discussion.
     
    #112 Isaiah40:28, Oct 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2007
  13. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    back to the OP
     
    #113 Isaiah40:28, Oct 23, 2007
  14. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Cool, thanks :wavey:
     
    #114 Allan, Oct 23, 2007
  15. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Mercy

    Zephaniah 3:12
    But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

    Matthew 11:25
    At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

    The simple truth is too complicated for the wise and learned. That is why it is foolishness.

    God has decided to hide the truth from the wise and learned.

    When we come to Jesus we must come to Him as a child. Born again ready to start our new life with Jesus. Let Him teach us and guide us.

    Proverbs 3: 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;

    6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths]

    Whosoever believes shall be saved, but to enter the kingdom of heaven we must be born again.

    No matter how hard we try to show the world whosoever can come to the Lord, the wise and learned will make this simple message foolishness. You just got to forgive them for they know not what they do.

    Matthew 9:13
    But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

    Luke 11:52
    "Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

    Just come to Jesus as a child, begin again and let Jesus guide you.

    God the Father has chosen to keep the meek and humble who trust in the name of our Lord Jesus. These are His chosen.
     
    #115 psalms109:31, Oct 23, 2007
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