1 Corinthians 12:3

[Van]

@Van were you intending to respond to @canadyjd rather than me?

Oops, Silverhair, I was indeed attempting to address another poster, not you. My bad...

 

[Van]

He quoted your post.
Are you thinking his response is simply a knee jerk, hyperbolic explosion of hatred? Yep
Welcome to the receiving end of @van’s nonsensical posts. How does it feel?
Peace to you

Yet another off topic effort at mind reading by the posters that says "by the Spirit" does not mean according to the Spirit's desires. I kid you not...

 

[percho]

But not beyond the bible.



If before then you have setup a conflict within the Godhead. Then you have taken away the responsibility of the person. If the Holy Spirit decides who can trust in God then no free will is there.



Yes God did save some specific people for a specific purpose/service. But if Man has a free will then you can not have the Holy Spirit deciding who will be allowed to trust in God as you indicate in your prior answer. The Holy Spirit will influence/convict but does not dictate.



Yes the bible is clear that God is sovereign and He saves who He chooses and He chooses to save those that trust in Him. Those that reject Him He does leave to themselves so we have no disagreement there.

What we see in scripture is that God has provided various means by which man can know Him. Whether creation, conviction of sin or the gospel etc, those that come to God will not be turned away. Everyday we see mans' free will inaction in the various choices they make. I have spent enough time speaking to numerous people over the years to see some accept and others reject the free gift of salvation and I know that God does not play favorites. All have an equal chance to come to Him.

I agree that man is not in charge with regard to his salvation, how could he be. But God being in charge means He is the one that sets the conditions for salvation and He has. I don't see how He could have made it clearer.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

That is an invitation to all, not just a select group as Calvinism posits, to make a choice to come to Him. The Calvinist determinism and TULIP turn Gods' offer on its' head. The universal call becomes a limited one. That reason alone is enough for me to reject Calvinism.

I did not say they were uninformed, they were reading the text through a specific lens, Calvinism. That has colored all that they understand and write.

for as ye also once did not believe in God, and now did find kindness by the unbelief of these: so also these now did not believe, that in your kindness they also may find kindness; for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness. Rom 11:30-32

33 O depth of riches, and wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

Why do you think/believe one must have free will?

What has God been doing since Gen 1:3 and why is he doing what he is doing? Is everything a means unto an end? Eph 1:10 comes to mind; in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;

 

[percho]

Yet another off topic effort at mind reading by the posters that says "by the Spirit" does not mean according to the Spirit's desires. I kid you not...

How does the following from Wescott and Hort fit the meaning? I ask for I am not sure.

if lest in unto a-currenting-to unto-hallow-belonged

I believe Paul is stating one can not understandingly / truthfully state in belief, Jesus is Lord, unless one has been given the Holy Spirit.

 

[Van]

How does the following from Wescott and Hort fit the meaning? I ask for I am not sure.

if lest in unto a-currenting-to unto-hallow-belonged

I believe Paul is stating one can not understandingly / truthfully state in belief, Jesus is Lord, unless one has been given the Holy Spirit.

I am assuming this phrase, "if lest in unto a-currenting-to unto-hallow-belonged" is a quotation of some part of some verse. Please provide the reference, in the YLT with the corresponding wording bolded.

Your acceptance of "Total Spiritual Inability" requires the view that no lost person can believe from their heart that Jesus is Lord, but others hold that the lost have "Soul Liberty" or Soul Competence and can choose to believe Jesus is Lord or not. It is a distinctive belief of General Baptists. Whereas your view represents Reformed Baptists.

My belief, of course, is that the lost can choose to trust in Christ as Lord and Savior. That is why believers act as ambassadors of Christ begging the lost to "be reconciled to God."

 

[percho]

I am assuming this phrase, "if lest in unto a-currenting-to unto-hallow-belonged" is a quotation of some part of some verse. Please provide the reference, in the YLT with the corresponding wording bolded.

Your acceptance of "Total Spiritual Inability" requires the view that no lost person can believe from their heart that Jesus is Lord, but others hold that the lost have "Soul Liberty" or Soul Competence and can choose to believe Jesus is Lord or not. It is a distinctive belief of General Baptists. Whereas your view represents Reformed Baptists.

My belief, of course, is that the lost can choose to trust in Christ as Lord and Savior. That is why believers act as ambassadors of Christ begging the lost to "be reconciled to God."

The above in bold is WH translation of KVJ, but by the Holy Ghost.

Thanks for the reply.

My thought is: God, in Christ, reconciled. Not for me to tell someone, to, in Christ, reconcile themself to God. Course I don't think that is what you mean I just do not know how to word it.

 

[Silverhair]

for as ye also once did not believe in God, and now did find kindness by the unbelief of these: so also these now did not believe, that in your kindness they also may find kindness; for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness. Rom 11:30-32

33 O depth of riches, and wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

Why do you think/believe one must have free will?

What has God been doing since Gen 1:3 and why is he doing what he is doing? Is everything a means unto an end? Eph 1:10 comes to mind; in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;

Simple answer, if we do not have a free will then everything that happens has been determined by God. Which means everything 1] including all the evil that we see 2] man can not be held responsible for rejecting or accepting God. You can not say God lets them do as they wish as that would require a free will. So no free will means absolute determinism.

But we see clearly in scripture that man is held responsible for the choices they make and that God expects them to make these choices. So if God expects man to make choices then logically He has given man the free will with which to make them or perhaps you think God is just being disingenuous and were just actors on a stage after all.

 

[DaveXR650]

That is an invitation to all, not just a select group as Calvinism posits, to make a choice to come to Him. The Calvinist determinism and TULIP turn Gods' offer on its' head. The universal call becomes a limited one. That reason alone is enough for me to reject Calvinism.

The invitation is to all. And the promise is that Christ never will turn away anyone who comes. As Owen said, there is simply nothing a man can do to more highly please God than to come to Christ, giving all honor to him for his salvation. And he said there is no higher insult or sin than to refuse this invitation.

Now I admit that not all Calvinists accept this. One thing I have learned on this site is that a lot of the Calvinists on here hate Owen and the rest of the Puritans. I like them and I think I have benefited from reading them. Come to think of it, most of the fundamentalists hate them too. So I guess I'll leave you all to go at it.

 

[Silverhair]

The invitation is to all. And the promise is that Christ never will turn away anyone who comes. As Owen said, there is simply nothing a man can do to more highly please God than to come to Christ, giving all honor to him for his salvation. And he said there is no higher insult or sin than to refuse this invitation.

Now I admit that not all Calvinists accept this. One thing I have learned on this site is that a lot of the Calvinists on here hate Owen and the rest of the Puritans. I like them and I think I have benefited from reading them. Come to think of it, most of the fundamentalists hate them too. So I guess I'll leave you all to go at it.

I agree with what Owen said and it pains me that so many will reject the gift that is offered.

I do not understand why someone would hate Owen or the Puritans as many things they say are biblical.

Where they drift from scripture I do not agree with them as then they are letting Calvinism color their view of scripture.

My stance is that the bible is the standard not what some man has written no matter who that man is or what theological view he holds.

 

[Van]

The above in bold is WH translation of KVJ, but by the Holy Ghost.

Thanks for the reply.

My thought is: God, in Christ, reconciled. Not for me to tell someone, to, in Christ, reconcile themself to God. Course I don't think that is what you mean I just do not know how to word it.

1) I disagree with claiming "but by the Holy Ghost" means compelled by the Holy Ghost. It means to speak in accordance with the desire of the Holy Spirit (Ghost).

2) When we beg the lost to be reconciled to God, to claim we are saying "reconcile yourselves to God" is nonsense. God is reconciling fallen humanity, one sinner at a time, to Himself. How anyone could so misread scripture (2 Corinthians 5:19) to claim it says, We are reconciling God to ourselves is beyond me.

3) Your acceptance of "Total Spiritual Inability" requires the view that no lost person can believe from their heart that Jesus is Lord, but others hold that the lost have "Soul Liberty" or Soul Competence and can choose to believe Jesus is Lord or not.

My belief, of course, is that the lost can choose to trust in Christ as Lord and Savior. That is why believers act as ambassadors of Christ begging the lost to "be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:20

 

[percho]

1) I disagree with claiming "but by the Holy Ghost" means compelled by the Holy Ghost. It means to speak in accordance with the desire of the Holy Spirit (Ghost).

2) When we beg the lost to be reconciled to God, to claim we are saying "reconcile yourselves to God" is nonsense. God is reconciling fallen humanity, one sinner at a time, to Himself. How anyone could so misread scripture (2 Corinthians 5:19) to claim it says, We are reconciling God to ourselves is beyond me.

3) Your acceptance of "Total Spiritual Inability" requires the view that no lost person can believe from their heart that Jesus is Lord, but others hold that the lost have "Soul Liberty" or Soul Competence and can choose to believe Jesus is Lord or not.

My belief, of course, is that the lost can choose to trust in Christ as Lord and Savior. That is why believers act as ambassadors of Christ begging the lost to "be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:20

Help me to understand differently if my understand be incorrect.

V 19 YLT how that God was in Christ -- a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,

To my understanding that verse states God, in Christ, has reconciled the world unto himself, God.

V 20 as ambassadors state, be ye reconciled to God. You are reconciled to God. You be, being reconciled. A command.

 

[canadyjd]

1) ……
Your acceptance of "Total Spiritual Inability" requires the view that no lost person can believe from their heart that Jesus is Lord, but others hold that the lost have "Soul Liberty" or Soul Competence and can choose to believe Jesus is Lord or not….

This view of the Reformed position is lacking the critical presence of God Holy Spirit.

The accurate way of saying it is that no lost person can believe from the heart Jesus is Lord “but by the Spirit”.

This view is completely consistent with 1 Corinthians 12:3.

As some posters must “rewrite” the passage to fit their bias, it is best to dismiss their views as inconsistent with God’s Word.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

This view of the Reformed position is lacking the critical presence of God Holy Spirit.

The accurate way of saying it is that no lost person can believe from the heart Jesus is Lord “but by the Spirit”.

This view is completely consistent with 1 Corinthians 12:3.

As some posters must “rewrite” the passage to fit their bias, it is best to dismiss their views as inconsistent with God’s Word.

peace to you

Glad you agree @canadyjd we should just dismiss yours'.

 

[37818]

. . . εν πνευματι θεου . . .

. . . εν πνευματι αγιω . . .

 

[Van]

SNIP
To my understanding that verse states God, in Christ, has reconciled the world unto himself, God.
SNIP

Your understanding is totally wrong. God is reconciling the world to Himself. Thus some of the world has been reconciled, and some have not. If everyone has been reconciled, no one would be told to beg the lost to be reconciled. Everyone to be reconciled has not "received" the reconciliation.

 

[Van]

This view of the Reformed position is lacking the critical presence of God Holy Spirit.

The accurate way of saying it is that no lost person can believe from the heart Jesus is Lord “but by the Spirit”.

This view is completely consistent with 1 Corinthians 12:3.

As some posters must “rewrite” the passage to fit their bias, it is best to dismiss their views as inconsistent with God’s Word.

peace to you

One poster, thinks the translations are inspired, thus to translate differently for the one, or ones (who knows) is to rewrite God's word. One false doctrine piled on another. And so it goes.

In Galatians 5:16, Paul writes, “So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.” The expression walk by the Spirit is a metaphor that Paul uses to describe the way in which believers are called to live (cf. Romans 6:4; 2 Corinthians 5:7; Ephesians 2:10; 4:1; 5:15; Colossians 2:6).

The idea to walk by the Spirit indicates we are compelled to follow Christ is nonsense.

 

[Van]

This view of the Reformed position is lacking the critical presence of God Holy Spirit.

The accurate way of saying it is that no lost person can believe from the heart Jesus is Lord “but by the Spirit”.

This view is completely consistent with 1 Corinthians 12:3.

As some posters must “rewrite” the passage to fit their bias, it is best to dismiss their views as inconsistent with God’s Word.

peace to you

One poster, thinks the translations are inspired, thus to translate differently for the one, or ones (who knows) is to rewrite God's word. One false doctrine piled on another. And so it goes.

 

[canadyjd]

One poster, thinks the translations are inspired, thus to translate differently for the one, or ones (who knows) is to rewrite God's word. One false doctrine piled on another. And so it goes.

The idea to walk by the Spirit indicates we are compelled to follow Christ is nonsense.

One poster believes if he doesn’t like what Christian scholars have agreed upon for thousands of years, he can just rewrite the passage to fit his view.

By doing so, he presents one false doctrine after another until he has rewritten scripture and invented his own religion. And so it goes.

This has been done throughout history and Christians have rightly rejected these false teachers.

peace to you

 

[Van]

One poster believes if he doesn’t like what Christian scholars have agreed upon for thousands of years, he can just rewrite the passage to fit his view.

By doing so, he presents one false doctrine after another until he has rewritten scripture and invented his own religion. And so it goes.

This has been done throughout history and Christians have rightly rejected these false teachers.

peace to you

Does anyone actually believe the Calvinist interpretation of scripture arose "thousands" of years ago?
Or that the General Baptist distinctives are an invention of Van?

Bible study takes work, whereas posting "taint so" takes no study or knowledge.

 

[canadyjd]

Does anyone actually believe the Calvinist interpretation of scripture arose "thousands" of years ago?
Or that the General Baptist distinctives are an invention of Van?

Bible study takes work, whereas posting "taint so" takes no study or knowledge.

Yes!! The reformed view was held by Jesus, Paul and the early church.

Jesus taught it. The Apostles repeated it. The early church accepted it

Peace to you