1 Corinthians 2:14 - How does God explain truth?

[Winman]

Nope......good retort.......

So Willis, if God is not offended or threatened by the presence of sinless angels all around him, would he be threatened by millions of innocent babies all around him?

Now, babies who die are not without need of Jesus Christ, Jesus also died for the physical body. These babies who died will also receive an incorruptible body in the resurrection just like us.

Jesus did not die for sin alone but also for the whole creation which will be delivered from corruption (Rom 8:19-23)

God is not intimidated by sinless creatures around him.

 

[convicted1]

So Willis, if God is not offended or threatened by the presence of sinless angels all around him, would he be threatened by millions of innocent babies all around him?

Now, babies who die are not without need of Jesus Christ, Jesus also died for the physical body. These babies who died will also receive an incorruptible body in the resurrection just like us.

Jesus did not die for sin alone but also for the whole creation which will be delivered from corruption (Rom 8:19-23)

God is not intimidated by sinless creatures around him.

Angels weren't made in the image and likeness of God, either. Adam was made in the image and likeness of God w/o sin. After he fell in the Garden, he marred that image of God.

Look at it like this. If Adam and Eve had raised children w/o falling, then they, too, would have been sinless. They would have retained that integrity that God gave Adam when He made him. However, that integrity was broken, was marred, when Adam sinned. So, in Genesis 5, Seth was born in the image and likeness of Adam, who was then, the marred image of God. We got that same marred image, being in Adam.

 

[Winman]

So then Adam's sin is passed upon us then? How is this sin passed onto us and yet be not born sinners, Brother? That's what I am getting at. We are held accountable for our sins, and our born sinners because of Adam's. Adam's sin caused us to be born with a sentence of death already placed upon us through no fault of our own. Adam's sin caused us to be born with a sin nature, too. That's why babies lie when they are caught. That's why they steal things that don't belong to them, too. This is something that you don't have to instill into them. It's already there, already programmed into them. We have to teach babies, young children to do the right things. We have to instill into them what is right at a very young age. Not so with doing the wrong things. Watch a young child/toddler, and see if they won't do the wrong things without anyone showing them. We have to tell them it's wrong take something that's not theirs. We have to tell them it's wrong to tell a lie.


It's like babies being born in Ethiopa and die starved to death. Through no fault of their own, they are born into that condition. Through no fault of their own, they die because of that condition.

NO! Adam's sin is not passed to us or any other man. Every man dies for his own sin.

But babies that die are not sinners. You must have knowledge of sin to be guilty of sin. This is why Paul said he spiritually died in Romans 7:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The Jews thought that Paul was saying the law is evil, because the law kills us. That is not true, the law is good and holy. But the law makes us accountable for sin, and sin uses this fact to kill us.

In verse 7 Paul is describing when he first came to know the law. He says he would not have known sin except for the law, he would not have known what lust is, except the law had said thou shalt not covet.

Well, that made him accountable. If he looked with envy on someone else's property or wife, he became guilty of sin, and sin killed him. The wages of sin is death.

Note that Paul says he was "alive" without the law once. When was this? When he was a child, before he learned the law as he just described in verse 7. Now once he learned the law he was convicted as a sinner and spiritually died.

Paul had believed that the law led to life. And in fact, if a man perfectly obeyed the law his entire life he would merit eternal life. But sin used the law to deceive him and kill him. You only have to sin ONCE and you are "sold under sin", just like a slave in the ancient market. You now belong to sin like a servant, and his wage is death. No matter what you do, good or bad, the only wage sin pays is death.

All persons are born "flesh". Eve had the three worldly lusts, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life in Genesis 3:6 BEFORE she sinned, but God called her "very good" until she actually disobeyed God.

It is not a sin to have desires and lusts, Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted in "all points" as we are, yet without sin. We sin when we obey our lusts when they would cause us to transgress God's laws. But you must know and understand your actions. Adam and Eve were told beforehand that if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would die, so they were accountable.

 

[convicted1]

I love you Brother, but I am done. Neither side will relent.

May you be blessed with a very joyous CHRISTmas.....I truly love you, my Brother....

 

[Winman]

Angels weren't made in the image and likeness of God, either. Adam was made in the image and likeness of God w/o sin. After he fell in the Garden, he marred that image of God.

Look at it like this. If Adam and Eve had raised children w/o falling, then they, too, would have been sinless. They would have retained that integrity that God gave Adam when He made him. However, that integrity was broken, was marred, when Adam sinned. So, in Genesis 5, Seth was born in the image and likeness of Adam, who was then, the marred image of God. We got that same marred image, being in Adam.

Adam and Eve's children would have had free will and could have eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil just like their parents.

It is free will that enables a person to sin, and unbelief that causes it.

And Willis, the scriptures continue to say we are made in the image of God LONG after Seth;

Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Men are STILL made after the likeness or similitude of God Willis.

 

[convicted1]

Adam and Eve's children would have had free will and could have eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil just like their parents.

It is free will that enables a person to sin, and unbelief that causes it.

And Willis, the scriptures continue to say we are made in the image of God LONG after Seth;

Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Men are STILL made after the likeness or similitude of God Willis.

Yes, we are made in the image and likeness of God still. Neither side of the debate disagrees. However, Adam marred that image when he sinned........

 

[Winman]

I love you Brother, but I am done. Neither side will relent.

May you be blessed with a very joyous CHRISTmas.....I truly love you, my Brother....

You USED to say the very words I am telling you now, I don't know what happened. Go back and read some of your old posts, you will be shocked at the difference between then and now, I know I am.

I know this will sound like an insult, but I sincerely do not mean it like that, but you have convinced me that brain-washing is real, and it is shocking. Your thinking has been dramatically changed since I've known you here at BB. You are a different person, and you even talk differently.

You now sound JUST LIKE all the other Calvinists, You guys talk like trained parrots or robots.

I know that sounds cruel Willis, but it is absolutely true.

 

[convicted1]

You USED to say the very words I am telling you now, I don't know what happened. Go back and read some of your old posts, you will be shocked at the difference between then and now, I know I am.

I know this will sound like an insult, but I sincerely do not mean it like that, but you have convinced me that brain-washing is real, and it is shocking. Your thinking has been dramatically changed since I've known you here at BB. You are a different person, and you even talk differently.

You now sound JUST LIKE all the other Calvinists, You guys talk like trained parrots or robots.

I know that sounds cruel Willis, but it is absolutely true.

Brother, I have not been brainwashed. I used only prayer and my bible in regards to my change in theology. I have since read some reformed works, but not before. I have Calvin's Institutes, which I've read maybe 15 pages out of in the 3+ years I've had it. I have an ESV study bible which hasn't been opened in close to 2 years. I do have a Nook and have the ESV on it and what little I've read it, it seems pretty good.

You stated one time that "you opened your heart to God", and that shook me to the core. Even then, I was still in the FW camp, and I disagreed with that to the inth degree. It was because of that I began asking God to allow me to read His word w/o a bias one way or the other. I studied with a FW slant, and it caused me to see things in the FW slant. When I began studying His word, it seemed like the DoGs leaped out of the pages to me. I was not indoctrinated, nor did any of my DoG Brethren try to influence me via PM. It was truly through prayer and study that my beliefs shifted.

I went to a local church a week or two after I began this "theological journey", and they sung the song, "Word of God speak" and I bawled. That's all I wanted, was for it to speak to me.

Don't get me wrong. This shift in beliefs wasn't easy, either. I struggled with this, not wanting to misrepresent my King in any way. I went to bed one morning, and couldn't sleep. I was in despair wanting to know what His word was saying. I then red in Eze. 34 and that helped me some.

I had been mulling this in my mind for quite some time, Brother. I'd hear someone say "I chose Jesus", and eventhough I "amened" it, it seemed like something down deep cringed. Where was the verses stating it was God who chose first? So, I am the same "me", but I see things differently now.

 

[Winman]

Brother, I have not been brainwashed. I used only prayer and my bible in regards to my change in theology. I have since read some reformed works, but not before. I have Calvin's Institutes, which I've read maybe 15 pages out of in the 3+ years I've had it. I have an ESV study bible which hasn't been opened in close to 2 years. I do have a Nook and have the ESV on it and what little I've read it, it seems pretty good.

You stated one time that "you opened your heart to God", and that shook me to the core. Even then, I was still in the FW camp, and I disagreed with that to the inth degree. It was because of that I began asking God to allow me to read His word w/o a bias one way or the other. I studied with a FW slant, and it caused me to see things in the FW slant. When I began studying His word, it seemed like the DoGs leaped out of the pages to me. I was not indoctrinated, nor did any of my DoG Brethren try to influence me via PM. It was truly through prayer and study that my beliefs shifted.

I went to a local church a week or two after I began this "theological journey", and they sung the song, "Word of God speak" and I bawled. That's all I wanted, was for it to speak to me.

Don't get me wrong. This shift in beliefs wasn't easy, either. I struggled with this, not wanting to misrepresent my King in any way. I went to bed one morning, and couldn't sleep. I was in despair wanting to know what His word was saying. I then red in Eze. 34 and that helped me some.

I had been mulling this in my mind for quite some time, Brother. I'd hear someone say "I chose Jesus", and eventhough I "amened" it, it seemed like something down deep cringed. Where was the verses stating it was God who chose first? So, I am the same "me", but I see things differently now.

You know Willis, we say we love Jesus because he first loved us, don't we?

1 Jhn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Willis, simply substitute the word "chose" for love here, and you have the free will view.

You know, I was just a ten year old kid when I received Jesus as my Saviour. All I cared about was baseball. I played Little League, and I dreamed about playing in the Majors someday. I wanted to be just like my hero Mickey Mantle. :thumbs:

We had just moved to Panama City, Florida, long story, but my parents had divorced a few years earlier, and my Dad just wanted to get away from all the trouble in N. Carolina. We didn't know anybody at our new home, but I liked it there.

Just so happened my neighbors were Baptist missionaries who were home from Afghanistan. Really nice people with a son my age. We played together all the time. One day they asked my Dad if they could take me and my older brother to church with them. My Dad agreed.

Well, it was a huge church, looking back I think the pastor may have been Hugh Pyle who was a very famous preacher at one time. He preached a fire and brimstone sermon that day. Boy, I was scared to death. I knew I had sinned in my life, although I would laugh now. What's the worst thing a ten year old kid has done? Nevertheless, I knew I had lied, I knew I had disobeyed my parents before, I had cursed... I knew I was guilty before God and that if I died I would go straight to hell. You have no idea how terrified I really was.

When that preacher gave the invitation, I practically ran down to the front. Although this was a big church full of grown-ups and I was a very shy kid, I didn't care, I wanted to get this matter settled, and I wanted to get it settled NOW! I was afraid to leave that church thinking I might die on the way home and go to hell forever.

Anyway, they took me through the scriptures and asked me if I believed them. I ALWAYS believed the Bible, just like I do now. I confessed I was a sinner, and I prayed and asked Jesus to save me. And I know we are not supposed to base our salvation on an experience, but I could swear I felt the Holy Spirit come into me. I am being dead serious. And he has never left since.

The point is Willis, God chose me, I didn't really chose him. I really think God was behind all the events in my life that brought me to that Baptist church way back in 1964. We moved from Panama City very shortly after that. But I think God brought my family to that time and place just for me. I think that is how God saves all persons he knows will believe, he knows the right time and place they will believe, and he places them in that situation.

So God chose me, but because Jesus loved me and died for me, I chose him back.

Now, if it is OK to love Jesus because he first loved us, isn't it OK to choose Jesus because he FIRST chose us?

Think about it.

 

[convicted1]

God bless you my Brother. That's such a wonderful testimony. When He saved me, I felt a peace come all over me, starting at the top of my head, going all the way down. I felt a load of guilt leave me, too. I agree that we have to choose Him, too. But there are some, and I know you'll cringe at this, He just simply didn't choose, therefore, they will never have a desire to chose Him, to come to Him, to live for Him, etc.......

 

[Winman]

God bless you my Brother. That's such a wonderful testimony. When He saved me, I felt a peace come all over me, starting at the top of my head, going all the way down. I felt a load of guilt leave me, too. I agree that we have to choose Him, too. But there are some, and I know you'll cringe at this, He just simply didn't choose, therefore, they will never have a desire to chose Him, to come to Him, to live for Him, etc.......

Willis, you didn't get that from the Bible, those are the doctrines of men. My God does not PASS BY folks.

Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

You know this story Willis, about the poor man who was attacked and beaten. Note that he was only "half dead". Something to think about.

The priest and the Levite PASSED BY. Isn't that what your new found faith also teaches? That God chooses to PASS BY some men?

But the Samaritan did not pass by. The Samaritan was a hybrid, a half-breed. He was not Jew, or Gentile, but both and despised by both. Jesus likewise was the God/Man despised of men.

This Samaritan did not callously pass by, but felt compassion and went to the man's aid. He poured oil which represents the Holy Spirit, and bound the man up which represents the righteousness imputed a man. He put the man on his beast, which represent the Holy Spirit that abides with us forever, and comforts us.

At the Inn he left the innkeeper in charge, which again represents the Holy Spirit who abides with us forever and keeps us. And finally, note that the Samaritan promised to return, just as Jesus will return.

Jesus commanded us to be like the good Samaritan. We are not to pass by folks, but to try to help them.

Jesus does not pass by folks Willis, this is not what the scriptures teach, you have learned this false teaching from men.

 

[The Biblicist]

NO! Adam's sin is not passed to us or any other man.

Absolutely true! The entire human race consisting in the combined human nature acted directly in Adam and thus sinned when Adam sinned and therefore death is the proof of just condemnation of partaking in that sin.

 

[Winman]

Absolutely true! The entire human race consisting in the combined human nature acted directly in Adam and thus sinned when Adam sinned and therefore death is the proof of just condemnation of partaking in that sin.

The problem for you is that God directly says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Maybe you should take a magic marker and blot this verse out of your Bible since you don't believe it anyway.

 

[Winman]

and I know you'll cringe at this,

Very telling Willis, you admit this doctrine of yours offends your conscience.

It should.

 

[pinoybaptist]

..............
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
................

you are out of context. verse 1 of this chapter without question identifies the ownership God is talking about as His ownership of the nation Israel. This has nothing to do with mankind.
In essence what God is saying is that those who are parents among His people are responsible to Him, as are those who are children of parents among His people.
Each shall be responsible and punished for His iniquity.
The father has no responsibility for the iniquity of his son, and vice-versa.

 

[convicted1]

Very telling Willis, you admit this doctrine of yours offends your conscience.

It should.

No, not in the least. I said "I know you'll cringe" and not me. My conscience isn't the least bit offended. I rejoice knowing that through nothing good, no good works, God chose me from before the foundation and enscribed my name in the Lamb's Book of Life......

 

[convicted1]

Willis, you didn't get that from the Bible, those are the doctrines of men. My God does not PASS BY folks.

Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

You know this story Willis, about the poor man who was attacked and beaten. Note that he was only "half dead". Something to think about.

The priest and the Levite PASSED BY. Isn't that what your new found faith also teaches? That God chooses to PASS BY some men?

But the Samaritan did not pass by. The Samaritan was a hybrid, a half-breed. He was not Jew, or Gentile, but both and despised by both. Jesus likewise was the God/Man despised of men.

This Samaritan did not callously pass by, but felt compassion and went to the man's aid. He poured oil which represents the Holy Spirit, and bound the man up which represents the righteousness imputed a man. He put the man on his beast, which represent the Holy Spirit that abides with us forever, and comforts us.

At the Inn he left the innkeeper in charge, which again represents the Holy Spirit who abides with us forever and keeps us. And finally, note that the Samaritan promised to return, just as Jesus will return.

Jesus commanded us to be like the good Samaritan. We are not to pass by folks, but to try to help them.

Jesus does not pass by folks Willis, this is not what the scriptures teach, you have learned this false teaching from men.

When God made a covenant with Noah, only Noah found grace in God's eyes. Now, grace is unmeritted favor, so if God chose Noah based on something intrinsicly found in Noah, then it wouldn't be grace, but works found in God's eyes/ Where was the rest of the people when God made a covenant with Abraham? Where was the rest of creation when God made the Old Law, a covenant with God's people, His elect? God has passed over many, many, many, people, Brother, and left them in their fallen state.

As for that parable, that is an allegory of Christ and His sheep......

 

[pinoybaptist]

No, not in the least. I said "I know you'll cringe" and not me. My conscience isn't the least bit offended. I rejoice knowing that through nothing good, no good works, God chose me from before the foundation and enscribed my name in the Lamb's Book of Life......

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[The Biblicist]

The problem for you is that God directly says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Maybe you should take a magic marker and blot this verse out of your Bible since you don't believe it anyway.

It is one thing for a person to be condemned for another's person's sin but quite another thing to be condemned for his own sin. The whole of human nature ACTUALLY EXISTED IN ADAM and acted when Adam acted and so all men sinned in that single action. No sinner is being condemned for Adam's action but for their own action as they were INSEPARABLY ONE with Adam when Adam acted.


The problem for you is that Ezekiel is speaking about CIVIL COURT action within Israel and is speaking about one fallen person being judged for actions by another fallen person.

 

[webdog]

When God made a covenant with Noah, only Noah found grace in God's eyes. Now, grace is unmeritted favor, so if God chose Noah based on something intrinsicly found in Noah, then it wouldn't be grace, but works found in God's eyes/ Where was the rest of the people when God made a covenant with Abraham? Where was the rest of creation when God made the Old Law, a covenant with God's people, His elect? God has passed over many, many, many, people, Brother, and left them in their fallen state.

As for that parable, that is an allegory of Christ and His sheep......

Since faith is never a work, your theory crumbles right there Willis.

You have also relegated election to that of the lottery if it based on absolutely nothing. By definition if it is based on nothing, its arbitrary selection...and you cannot even know until you stand before Him one day. I know you will say He chose based on His reasons, but that is merely circular logic and not the reason.