Featured 1 Corinthians 2:14 - How does God explain truth?

Regeneration means simply to be made alive again. When righteousness is imputed to a person, that person is spiritually alive. This is why Abraham was said to be "living" by Jesus. But no believer had the indwelling Holy Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified (Jhn 7:39).

None of the OT saints ascended to heaven until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. All OT saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom until this was accomplished. After Jesus sprinkled the blood on the mercy seat he returned and led those saints in the heart of the earth to heaven. This is when they received the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

After this all saints go directly to heaven.

God did not tell Peter that Cornelius was "saved". God was simply telling Peter that Gentiles were no longer considered unclean and he was allowed to go preach to them, and to enter their homes. You are absolutely misrepresenting scripture here.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

God was not telling Peter that Cornelius was saved or regenerated, you are butchering the scriptures here.

Peter himself said that Cornelius was not saved when he approached him.

Acts 10:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Again, Peter himself confirms that Cornelius was not saved, and he did not have the Holy Spirit until he heard Peter's preaching and believed.

You cannot simply butcher scripture to force it to fit your doctrine. That is exactly what you always do.

Baloney, you can't just make up your own doctrine to fit Calvinism. The disciples did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, else Jesus would not have needed to promise them he would send the Holy Spirit to them who would abide with them forever and be "in you".

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Up to this point the Holy Spirit only dwelt with them (which I personally believe Jesus was speaking of himself when he said this), but afterward he would send the Holy Spirit and he would be "in you". This was after Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified.

The difference between me and you is that I have dozens of scriptures to support my view, you have absolutely NONE. You simply create your own doctrine as you go along and expect others to believe it without proof.

The scriptures directly tell us in John 7:39 that believers did not receive the Holy Spirit yet. You cannot produce even a single verse that teaches otherwise.

 

This is the common dispensational intepretation of these scritpures. However, that is not the only view or interpretation. Ephesians 4:8 can equally be interpreted to mean that Christ took captive what held us captive and that is sin, death and hell. The rich man is the one who went to "hades" whereas "paradise" was in the up position from "hades" with a great and vast separation between them as described by David in Psalm 139 as the extremes of heaven from hell. David claimed that at the point of death he went to heaven (Psa. 73:24-25) and Elijah was taken UP into heaven.

In regard to John 7 and other like passages you are confusing the indwelling of the Spirit as public institution (1 Cor. 3:16) versus individual indwelling (1 Cor. 6:19). The day of Pentecost was the common Old Testament public accreditation by immersion in the shikinah glory and indwelling of the new PUBLIC house of worship (1 Pet. 2:5).

We are not going to agree and for every interpretation you can provide I can provide another interpretation.

However, all of this discussion is secondary. The scripture never ever claim that Romans 3:9-20 refers to SOME of the lost or that Romans 8:7-8 is a condition of SOME of the lost as to be "in the flesh" is to be "none of his" (Rom. 8:9). In each of these texts it is the UNIVERSAL condition of what it means to be "in the flesh."

 

Psalm 73:24-25 does not say one word about David being in heaven before Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat.

Psa 73:24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.

Verse 24 says, "and afterward receive me to glory". If anything, that suggests that David had to wait to go to heaven and refutes your view! :laugh:

We know saints went down into the earth because scripture tells us Jesus went down into the heart of the earth for three days. He told the malefactor on the cross that he would be with him in paradise "To day".

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

We also know that Samuel went down into the earth.

1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

The reason saints had to go wait in the heart of the earth is because Jesus had not yet sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat and received the promise of the Spirit which he promised to believers AFTER he was glorified. After Jesus rose from the dead, then all believers immediately received the Holy Spirit, and all believers went directly to heaven when they died.

You should really consider a career in politics, you really know how to talk pure double-talk jibberish that means absolutely nothing.

You've got nothing. You do not provide scripture to support your view, just a bunch of double-talk nonsense.

Romans 3 does not prove inability at all. Romans 8:7 if taken completely alone and separated from all other scripture that relates to inability is an excellent argument for inability. The problem for you is that there are MANY scriptures that show unregenerate men can seek God and believe the gospel, such as Cornelius, or the 3000 persons who came to worship God on the day of Pentacost who all believed on Jesus and were saved.

Intelligent folks do not ignore scripture, even if it is inconvenient.

 

Acts 2 says that David was not in heaven at the time of Peter's sermon.

One could argue however that the "took captive a host of captives" is a reference to the "many' who were in the tombs in Matt 27 that were raised from the dead according to that chapter.

In any case - it is true that Elijah goes to heaven in the OT, and Hebrews 11 and Genesis 5 say the same thing about Enoch. And of course Moses and Elijah are with Christ in Matt 27 on the mount of Transfiguration.

True - but so also is John 3:16 and 1John 2:2 - John 12:32 universal.

in Christ,

Bob

 

After what? Look at the context and follow his thoughts:


23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.

1. Notice he is "CONTINUALLY" where? "with thee"

2. How so? here on "earth" (v. 25) God is with him by holding his right hand and guiding him with his counsel.

3. Aftward, after what? being with him on earth holding his hand and guiding him with his counsel he will receive "me to glory"!

Where is 'glory"? Notice verse 25 offers only two areas where God is CONTINUALLY with him (1) "earth" and "heaven"

Glory is heaven. In addition to this text David refers to his death as FLYING AWAY instead of going down into sheol. Indeed, the very song "I'll fly away oh glory" is taken from these words of David at death.

Sheol/hades is the place of the dead body and dead soul. The only aspect of the believer prior to the cross that dies is the body and it does go down into sheol - upper sheol where the bones are scattered. The spirit of the believer "never dies, believeth thou this" and that was said BEFORE the cross.

If I used this kind of rhetoric it would be used as grounds by you and others to have me banned. Your last two posts use ridicule. If I used it, I would be threatened with banning and called unChristlike. However, you arminians get to ridicule and mock in your posts and not a single word is ever said by any moderator.

Here you infer I am not intelligent but stupid. Could I say this and not be accused of personal attack, ridicule and not be accused of being unchristlike? I think not.

 

Actually, in John 3 Jesus said no man had ascended up to heaven except himself.

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

Notice he said he "hath ascended up to heaven" before the resurrection. He is the lone exception. Notice also he says that he is presently in heaven when speaking on earth to Niocdemus.

His meaning is clear. It is the same thing that Abraham told the rich man when the rich man wanted someone to return from paradise and warn his brothers. No man has ever gone to heaven and came back to tell you about heavenly things. Christ is the only one who has been to heaven and come to earth and thus the only man who on earth can speak definitively about heavenly things. Others have gone to heaven (Elijah; Paul) but were forbidden to speak of those things they saw.

 

Certainly true - he had to wait.

Acts 2 says Christ was the one raised - and David was still not ascended.

1 Sam 28 is a seance - so probably a demon speaking there since the witch is in charge of the seance. Saul asks her to 'conjure up for me whomever I shall name' by thy familiar spirit.

I don't know that I would go there.

But Luke 23 is interesting.

Luke 23:42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

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The reason saints had to go wait in the heart of the earth is because Jesus had not yet sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat
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Certainly the saints benefit from Christ's work as High Priest for us (Heb 8:1-5)

But Enoch, Elijah, Moses in Matt 17 (along with Elijah) are taken to heaven or with Christ before the cross.

Calvinists argue that Romans 3 is the sinful nature without any reference to the New Nature or the work of God in convicting the soul or drawing the soul.

I am about as Arminian as one can be - but I will hand them that one.

It is how I too would view the sinful nature apart from every work of God.

However there are works of God that are every bit as universal as the 1John 2:2 atoning sacrifice for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD and that includes supernatural conviction of the WORLD, and supernatural drawing of ALL.

Thus the result is that all - all the lost even are enabled to come to Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Romans 3 does not prove inability at all. It simply says man does not do good, it does not say man is unable to do good. HUGE difference.

If I were to say, None of my neighbors ever goes to church, no, not one, would you understand that to mean they were unable to go to church?

NO, no reasonable person would ever assume my statement to mean that, but that is exactly what Calvinists assume in Romans 3.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Again, these verses simply say that man does not do good, that is not the same thing as saying he is unable to do good.

In fact, if you read the scriptures, you see that these statements are general in nature, because men do good, and men do seek God.

2 Chr 19:3 Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God.

Here is scripture where God himself says there is some good found in king Jehoshaphat and that he prepared his heart to seek the Lord.

This verse alone (but there are many other similar verses) show that Romans 3 is speaking in general terms. Men not only can do good and seek God, but there are instances of men doing good and seeking God in scripture.

Calvinism loves to cherry pick verses that support it, and completely ignore MUCH scripture that easily refutes it. That is neither honest nor scholarly.

 

No he did not. He mentions continuous presence of God in only two locations "earth" and "heaven".

It is his BODY that remained in the grave which had not ascended:


29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

To be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord in glory. Remember he already told Nicodemus that he was already in heaven as he spoke to him on earth.

 

No, Jesus was in the heart of the earth on the first day, and that is where Paradise was also.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Where was Jesus on the first day?

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Where did Jesus go on the first day? Into the lower parts of the earth.

And in John 3 Jesus tells us that no man had yet ascended to heaven.

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had yet ascended up to heaven except himself.

 

Nice try, but Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended to heaven except himself.

That means David had not ascended to heaven yet.

And yes, Jesus can be in more than one location because he is God. David is not.

 

No, it was not a nice try but an accurate interpetation in consideration of the immediate context:

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The context is about being an eyewitness of things spoken about. Verse 12 introduces "heavenly things." No man has ascended into heaven that can reveal "heavenly things" to men on earth because Christ is the only man that has come down to earth from heaven that can reveal heavenly things.

Elijah and Moses appeared on the mount with the Father. Elijah was taken "up into heaven" but none of them have come back to reveal "heavenly things."

However, I will give you credit that the phrase taken by itself supports what you are saying.

 

You need to get a new argument. Every time someone refutes you (which is OFTEN) you claim context.

You do know there are three heavens don't you? We do not know what heaven Elijah was taken up into. But we are very certain that Jesus was speaking of the highest heaven, the third heaven. So, if he says no man has ascended to this heaven, then it is likely that Elijah only ascended to the second heaven. I can't prove that, but it is a real possibility.

You see, scripture cannot contradict itself, something you seem not to understand.

And I love the way you say, "that the phrase taken by itself supports what you are saying". Now that is hysterical, because you form all of your arguments by cherry picking scripture out of context and isolating them, completely ignoring volumes of scripture that refutes your views.

 

Winman;

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

 

Ahh yes - I keep forgetting about that missing text.

 

Winman

That is because you ignore the context or do not understand it..so he shows you how:thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup:

Winman...for you-19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

 

2 Cor. 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Two aorist infinitives demanding simletaneous action thus no gap in time between absence from the body and presence with the Lord.

 

Icon, I don't know if you are aware of this, but this was spoken by Jesus AFTER he had risen from the dead as Jesus said would happen in Jhn 7:39.

Yet thousands of persons had believed on Jesus before they received the Holy Spirit. The disciples had believed on Jesus over three years earlier in John chapter 2;

Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

This was spoken at Jesus's first miracle. His disciples believed on him years before they received the Spirit.

Thank you for proving my view and refuting Biblicist. :thumbs:

 

But your argument has been that this is impossible prior to the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given.

The truth is, that none of these texts refer to personal salvation or personal indwelling of the Spirit. The evidence will prove that water baptism is the prerequisite for baptism in the Spirit. In every promise prior to Pentecost this promise is addressed to water baptized believers only. On the day of Pentecost it occurred upon water baptized believers. In Acts 2:38 it is promised to repentant baptized believers. In Acts 8:14 it occurs upon water baptized believers. Only in Acts 10 does it happen prior to baptism but for the purpose to remove any objections by Jews to water baptize Gentiles.

This is the public accreditation of a new public house of worship, which in this case is not made of skins or stone but the assemblying of living stones gathered together for public worship. This same baptism in the Spirit or immersion in the shikinah glory occurred ONCE when each public house of worship was finished (Ex. 40:35; 2 Chron. 7:1-3; Acts 2:1-3). It is the public assembly that is indwelt by the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 3:16) as opposed to the individual as a temple of the Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19).

There can be no such thing as spiritual life without spiritual union between God and man as spiritual death is SEPARATION between God and man (Eph. 4:18). Spiritual UNION by definition demands God IN man. Your position demands salvation OUTSIDE of Jesus Christ when it is only possible "IN" Christ for all believers regardless when they lived either before or after the cross.

This is why Paul denies there are any human beings other than those "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" because all who are not "in the Spirit" are "NONE OF HIS" and can't be as they are WITHOUT GOD and thus SEPARATED from God who is SPIRIT.