1 Corinthians 2:14 - How does God explain truth?

[Iconoclast]

Revmitchell

Nice work but cals will jump around this because of their view of irresistible grace.

Nope...the cals will jump on it because it is false on several levels.

 

[webdog]

Correct...I agree:wavey::wavey:

Huh? How can you agree and disagree at the same time? Are you now a democrat?

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

Huh? How can you agree and disagree at the same time? Are you now a democrat?

If you look back at their post they said some believe this doesn't necessarily mean they are referring to themselves, and in this case they are not.:1_grouphug:

 

[Skandelon]

Skan apparently believes that Jesus Christ's teaching in John, particularly John 6, are only directed to those of Israel who were judicially hardened according to the prophecy of Isaiah. At least that is the position he took some months back!

Skan as admitted that it has a personal and individual application as well and has admitted that Pharoah is an example of individual application (Rom. 9:16-18).

As explained, the corporate view of election does NOT deny the individual application of election or hardening. If a nation is hardened then certainly individuals within that nation will be hardened. It is a matter of APPLICATION.

Pharaoh is referenced as one who foreshadowed Israel, in that Pharaoh was hardened in his rebellion in a similar way that Israelites where hardened in their rebellion. God accomplish a greater redemptive purpose through their rebellion. He hardened Pharaoh to ensure the first passover and he hardened Israel to ensure the real Passover. Both times, the purpose was redemptive. Both times the hardening was of those who had become calloused and rebellious, not ones born in a condition unable to do otherwise.

In the case of Israel, Paul specifically teaches that those hardened still have hope of being saved as they could be 'provoke to envy' and 'saved.' (Rm 11:14)

 

[Skandelon]

I am trusting your word is good here and because you are a moderator on the forum that you are representing the view of the forum moderators/administrators. I have refrained from posting thus far because I would not intentionally violate previously expressed wishes that I do not post. So, I am taking a step of trust in your word that I can post.

This is being handled through PM, as it should...we are working it out...

 

[Skandelon]

Response to "BIBLICIST" formerly known as Dr. Walter

So regeneration does not change the character or inabilities of the fallen nature within regenerated persons (Rom. 8:7). This is the only nature found in the lost person (Rom. 8:8). In Galatians 5:16-25 we have both the "works" of the flesh listed in addition to the "fruit" of the Spirit. Both can be seen in true born again believers. However, the fruit of the Spirit originates with the born again new nature while the "works of the flesh" originate with the fallen nature still residing within believers.

I understand your perspective regarding the two (almost bi-polar, or multi-personality like) dueling natures within man. And while I agree that we war with our flesh, I don't believe I go as far as you appear to go in your conclusions. After all, we are still held RESPONSIBLE for our sin...its not as if just our sin nature is held responsible but we aren't. You seem to have created two distinct persons existing in one body which overcomplicates this issue beyond what is necessary, IMO.

 

[BobRyan]

Pharaoh is referenced as one who foreshadowed Israel, in that Pharaoh was hardened in his rebellion in a similar way that Israelites where hardened in their rebellion.

In Exodus we are told that "Pharoah hardened his heart" a number of times and also that "God hardened" Pharoah's heart.

The very fact that a lost person's heart CAN be hardened from their initial starting point - proves they do not start off totally hardened and dead.

We are also told that when a severe judgment is not visited quickly - the wicked grow bolder (are allowed to harden).

God hardens Pharaoh's heart by starting off slowly in the scope and severity of the plagues and then eventually ending with the death decree.

At which point Pharaoh gives up - but then reverts back to rebellion as soon as Israel leaves.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iconoclast]

Huh? How can you agree and disagree at the same time? Are you now a democrat?

Through faith} --- faith is the instrumentality---we are linked to the finished work of the cross....it is simultaneous to regeneration;

5 Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.

Don't worry WD...I will not tell anyone I agree with you:laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

In Exodus we are told that "Pharoah hardened his heart" a number of times and also that "God hardened" Pharoah's heart.

The very fact that a lost person's heart CAN be hardened from their initial starting point - proves they do not start off totally hardened and dead.

EXACTLY! Judicial hardened (from God) is merely his blinding them from the clearly revealed truth for a time. This is comparable to a police officer hiding his presence so that the speeder will continue speeding. The cop is not making the speeder speed, he is only ensuring that his presence doesn't deter him from doing what he already wants to do.

Israel was rebellious despite God 'holding out his hands to them all day long' (Rm 10:21). So, for God to temporarily hide the truth of Christ's identity to accomplish the Passover is perfectly just, because that is all He is doing. They can still be saved even after being hardened...that is something Calvinists can't seem to understand.

 

[The Biblicist]

EXACTLY! Judicial hardened (from God) is merely his blinding them from the clearly revealed truth for a time. This is comparable to a police officer hiding his presence so that the speeder will continue speeding. The cop is not making the speeder speed, he is only ensuring that his presence doesn't deter him from doing what he already wants to do.

Israel was rebellious despite God 'holding out his hands to them all day long' (Rm 10:21). So, for God to temporarily hide the truth of Christ's identity to accomplish the Passover is perfectly just, because that is all He is doing. They can still be saved even after being hardened...that is something Calvinists can't seem to understand.

Hardening is the consequence of the NATURAL HEART which has no ability "to percieve, and eyes to see, and ears to hear" (Deut. 5:29; 29:4). Pharoah was a natural born human in possession of a fallen heart. No amount of exposure to light (truth, the word, the gospel) will enable this kind of heart to respond appropriately. If it could respond appropriately there would be no need for a NEW heart. The only kind of response possible for the natural heart is hardening. The more light it is exposed to the more it will harden. The natural heart can RECOGNIZE light and can REACT to light in one way only - hardening as the natural man "will not" come to the light. Thus the light does not provide enablement but exposes the condition of the old heart and brings only condemnation.

 

[Skandelon]

Hardening is the consequence of the NATURAL HEART

I'm not letting you get away with making blanket declarations without BIBLICAL support. I've shown you specific texts which CLEARLY teach that hardening is something men BECOME after years of rebellion. You are PRESUMING onto the text that all people would necessarily rebel against any level of divine revelation (even the powerful gospel appeal) and become hardened. Where does the text say this? Give a specific text which teaches that God's work in fulfilling the demands of the law through Christ and the cross, inspiring apostles to discern these mysteries for us in the scriptures, indwelling messengers to proclaim these truths in languages we can understand, and the commissioning of his Bride, the church, to spread this life giving truth throughout the world to all creation is just not enough... Show the specific text that requires more grace than that...find the verse that requires an irresistible grace by which man is not only made to understand the light, but made willing to accept and follow it....find those verses.

Paul clearly taught, "...otherwise they might see, hear, understand and turn and I would heal them."

How is that possible if what you believe is true? How 'MIGHT' they understand if born totally depraved, as you suggest and more importantly, how could God heal them?

Explain how hiding the truth in parables (Mark 4; Matt 13) could prevent men from believing and being healed if what you believe is true?

You are confusing God's judicial hardening of Israel, with the natural condition of mankind and I don't think you can see it. Calvinism has blinded you into not being able to even understand my view. I could be wrong...maybe you can restate my perspective and prove me wrong, but right now it doesn't even seem you get what I'm attempting to say...

 

[The Biblicist]

I'm not letting you get away with making blanket declarations without BIBLICAL support.

My new thread of Deuteronomy 5:29 provides the Bibical support you declare I am without. If you can point out any of the numerically listed reasons I gave in that thread which deal with both the context and texts - please do.

I've shown you specific texts which CLEARLY teach that hardening is something men BECOME after years of rebellion.

However, that is not the real issue as I believe that hardening is a process over extended periods of time. You and I both agree that those being hardened are without the new heart/nature and still unregenerated and thus a response of the fallen nature. Your problem is that the scriptures clearly and explicitly and repeatedly teach that SPIRITUAL perception, ability to see spiritually and hear spiritually is not the product of the old heart/fallen nature whether it exists in the lost or saved man but that ability is the product of the new heart (Ezek. 36;27; Deut. 29:4; 1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 8:7-8).

Hence, we must both agree that the fallen nature is the only possible source of hardening as the lost man does not possess a new heart. Hence, this hardening is simply the consequence of the fallen natures exposure to light (Jn. 3:19-20; Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14).

Therefore, we are not talking about SPIRITUAL ability but NATURAL ability or the functional process of the fallen conscience to exposure to light. The conscience can recognize light but that does not mean it has ability to respond favorably to what it recognizes. Indeed, Deut. 29:4 denies that possibility as that potential comes only with the new heart just as Ezek. 36:27declares.

You are PRESUMING onto the text that all people would necessarily rebel against any level of divine revelation (even the powerful gospel appeal) and become hardened. Where does the text say this?

Deut. 5:29 with 29:4; Ezek 36:26 with Ezek 36:27; 1 Cor. 2:14 with Romans 8:7. Romans 3:10-12; etc.

Give a specific text which teaches that God's work in fulfilling the demands of the law through Christ and the cross, inspiring apostles to discern these mysteries for us in the scriptures, indwelling messengers to proclaim these truths in languages we can understand, and the commissioning of his Bride, the church, to spread this life giving truth throughout the world to all creation is just not enough...

The very nature of your question presumes the very thing you are trying to prove and demanding that I prove when you say "life giving truth." Only the Spirit of God communicates spiritual life and it is obvious that is not accomplished every time the gospel is preached (2 Cor. 2:14-15) but only accomplished in regard to the elect (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

Paul clearly taught, "...otherwise they might see, hear, understand and turn and I would heal them."

Meaning, if the described condition were not true. But it is true and it is always true as the fallen nature responds only one way.

 

[The Biblicist]

My new thread of Deuteronomy 5:29 provides the Bibical support you declare I am without. If you can point out any of the numerically listed reasons I gave in that thread which deal with both the context and texts - please do.




However, that is not the real issue as I believe that hardening is a process over extended periods of time. You and I both agree that those being hardened are without the new heart/nature and still unregenerated and thus a response of the fallen nature. Your problem is that the scriptures clearly and explicitly and repeatedly teach that SPIRITUAL perception, ability to see spiritually and hear spiritually is not the product of the old heart/fallen nature whether it exists in the lost or saved man but that ability is the product of the new heart (Ezek. 36;27; Deut. 29:4; 1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 8:7-8).

Hence, we must both agree that the fallen nature is the only possible source of hardening as the lost man does not possess a new heart. Hence, this hardening is simply the consequence of the fallen natures exposure to light (Jn. 3:19-20; Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14).

Therefore, we are not talking about SPIRITUAL ability but NATURAL ability or the functional process of the fallen conscience to exposure to light. The conscience can recognize light but that does not mean it has ability to respond favorably to what it recognizes. Indeed, Deut. 29:4 denies that possibility as that potential comes only with the new heart just as Ezek. 36:27declares.







Deut. 5:29 with 29:4; Ezek 36:26 with Ezek 36:27; 1 Cor. 2:14 with Romans 8:7. Romans 3:10-12; etc.



The very nature of your question presumes the very thing you are trying to prove and demanding that I prove when you say "life giving truth." Only the Spirit of God communicates spiritual life and it is obvious that is not accomplished every time the gospel is preached (2 Cor. 2:14-15) but only accomplished in regard to the elect (1 Thes. 1:4-5).




Meaning, if the described condition were not true. But it is true and it is always true as the fallen nature responds only one way.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Skan, can you or any of those who defend your position claim the above verses are descriptive of the new regenerative nature??? I do not believe you would attempt to defend that idea.

Now, the only other state or condition possible is the unregenerated nature. Please note the explanatory verse 8 claims this is characteristics of those "in the flesh" and why they "cannot please God." Note, he did not say this is characterized of SOME or a PARTICULAR CLASS of lost men but those "in the flesh" which is used in contrast to those "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:9).

Your position is a simple denial of what Paul says the fallen nature "IS" as a STATE or CONDITION (the double "is" are STATE OF BEING verbs).

Your position requres a THIRD kind of man who is neither "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" which "IS" not being described in Romans 8:7-8. No such man exists.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Hardening is the consequence of the NATURAL HEART which has no ability "to percieve, and eyes to see, and ears to hear" (Deut. 5:29; 29:4). Pharoah was a natural born human in possession of a fallen heart. No amount of exposure to light (truth, the word, the gospel) will enable this kind of heart to respond appropriately. If it could respond appropriately there would be no need for a NEW heart. The only kind of response possible for the natural heart is hardening. The more light it is exposed to the more it will harden. The natural heart can RECOGNIZE light and can REACT to light in one way only - hardening as the natural man "will not" come to the light. Thus the light does not provide enablement but exposes the condition of the old heart and brings only condemnation.

:thumbs::thumbsup:

and thus, the natural man, the unregenerate, dead IN sin and trespasses (as opposed to dead TO sin), what I (and you may not necessarily agree) call the 'unelect', those whose names have never been written in God's mind and heart (his book of life, if you will) are not within the scope of human responsibility which so many in this board are demanding.

 

[Winman]

Your position requres a THIRD kind of man who is neither "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" which "IS" not being described in Romans 8:7-8. No such man exists.

But you are wrong and another type of man does exist, the unregenerate, but devout or spiritual man. Cornelius was such a man;

Acts 2:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

We know from scripture that Cornelius was not saved at this point in time, and he did not have the indwelling Spirit, yet the scriptures do not call him either a "natural" or "carnal" man, but a "devout man" who feared God, prayed always, and did many truly righteous works.

We see another example of "devout men" in Acts chapter 2;

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

These Jews were not saved, neither did they have the indwelling Holy Spirit, yet they were all in Jerusalem to worship God and celebrate the Passover. And we know that over 3000 of these men and women trusted Jesus Christ that day and received the Holy Spirit.

Another example is the disciples themselves in Matthew 26:41;

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

The disciples had not received the indwelling Holy Spirit at this point, but Jesus said in their natural spirit they were indeed willing to obey him, but their flesh was weak and caused them to fall asleep.

This shows that unregenerate man is not solely flesh, but also spirit, and that in his natural spirit he can be willing to be obedient and believe in God.

Cornelius and those thousands of unregenerate Jews on the day of Pentacost also show that natural man can attend to spiritual matters if they so choose to do.

Your theory is EASILY refuted by scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

:thumbs::thumbsup:

and thus, the natural man, the unregenerate, dead IN sin and trespasses (as opposed to dead TO sin), what I (and you may not necessarily agree) call the 'unelect', those whose names have never been written in God's mind and heart (his book of life, if you will) are not within the scope of human responsibility which so many in this board are demanding.

Skan has taken the term "responsibility" and defined so that it is impossible for man to ever forfeit or lose any kind of ability and be justly condemned by God for that forfeiture. However, the entire human nature with full ability acted when Adam acted and thus justly can be held accountable for their loss of spiritual ability because that ability was possessed and willfully forfeited by all mankind when all mankind existed as one human nature acting in the person of Adam.

 

[Winman]

Skan has taken the term "responsibility" and defined so that it is impossible for man to ever forfeit or lose any kind of ability and be justly condemned by God for that forfeiture. However, the entire human nature with full ability acted when Adam acted and thus justly can be held accountable for their loss of spiritual ability because that ability was possessed and willfully forfeited by all mankind when all mankind existed as one human nature acting in the person of Adam.

This is total error with not one word of scripture to support it. Note that Biblicist did not reference even one verse of scripture to support his view here. Zilch.

 

[The Biblicist]

This Note that Biblicist did not reference even one verse of scripture to support his view here. Zilch.

We have discussed this many times and I have provided Romans 5 consistently as the scripture I use to support this. You may disagree with my position and interpretation of Romans 5:12-19 but I certaintly have provided and then defended with scripture my position.

 

[BobRyan]

But you are wrong and another type of man does exist, the unregenerate, but devout or spiritual man. Cornelius was such a man;

It is not at all clear that Cornelius was unregenerate prior to getting the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then physical baptism.

(Unless you believe in baptismal regeneration which I assume you do not.)


Acts 2:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Sounds regenerate to me.

We know from scripture that Cornelius was not saved at this point in time

Not from any statement that I know of in Acts 10.

, and he did not have the indwelling Spirit,

No text that I know of says Cornelius did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. In fact I think that is the only way the lost become devout, praying servants of God.

Paul also admits that Timothy was saved prior to becoming a Christian.

And of course the saved OT saints in Heb 11 - were not NT saints - but OT pre-cross saints.

We see another example of "devout men" in Acts chapter 2;

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

True but there is no text in all of scripture saying that Jews were not saved until Christ died on the cross.

Enoch and Elijah went to heaven before that in fact and Moses appears with Christ in Matt 17.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

The disciples had not received the indwelling Holy Spirit at this point,

Indeed they had. In Matt 10 they are given Spiritual gifts and sent out as evangelists - preaching the Gospel of the kingdom.

So while I do agree with you that the lost are supposed to confess, repent and accept the gospel while lost - and then when they believe they are born again. I do not claim that these devout praying servants of God were not born-again - because they would need an actual new creation - new birth - new nature to be worshiping God and serving Him daily.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

But you are wrong and another type of man does exist, the unregenerate, but devout or spiritual man. Cornelius was such a man;

Acts 2:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

We know from scripture that Cornelius was not saved at this point in time, and he did not have the indwelling Spirit, yet the scriptures do not call him either a "natural" or "carnal" man, but a "devout man" who feared God, prayed always, and did many truly righteous works.

We have debated the meaning and application of the term "saved" in this text and we disagree. I have provided scriptures where the term "saved" does not refer to regeneration (e.g. 1 Tim. 2:15). Baptism in the Spirit cannot be equated with regeneration without denying regeneration occurred prior to Pentecost. Do you deny regeneration occurred prior to Pentecost? What Cornelius received was the baptism in the Spirit with accompanying signs and wonders (tongues) (Acts 10:45-46;11:15-16).

I have pointed out that God told Peter that Corneilius had already been made "clean" (Acts 10:15) and "accepted" by God (Acts 10:35) and that he was already a believer in the Old Testament gospel (Acts 10:43) but like Apollos was ignorant that Jesus was that Christ and of the newly commissioned and authorized administrator of the ordinances and public appointed means to serve God - the house of God.

We see another example of "devout men" in Acts chapter 2;

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

These Jews were not saved, neither did they have the indwelling Holy Spirit, yet they were all in Jerusalem to worship God and celebrate the Passover. And we know that over 3000 of these men and women trusted Jesus Christ that day and received the Holy Spirit.

There were devout believers in the OT gospel (Acts 10:43) such as Apollos who did not know that "Jesus" was the Christ who were not present when Christ was crucified but had come in from the various countries listed in Acts 2:6-11. The devout were among those who heard Peter and responded to baptism and church membership (Acts 2:40-41).

Another example is the disciples themselves in Matthew 26:41;

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

The disciples had not received the indwelling Holy Spirit at this point, but Jesus said in their natural spirit they were indeed willing to obey him, but their flesh was weak and caused them to fall asleep[/QUOTE ]

They were indwelt by the Spirit of God as individuals but as a plural "you" of baptized believers assembled by Christ they had not been baptized in the Spirit or indwelt by the Spirit as the new public "house of God."

There can be no SPIRITUAL LIFE where there is no SPIRITUAL UNION with God and there can be no Spiritual UNION if there is no permenant indwelling by the Spirit as indwelling is that UNION with God and those without indwelling are "none of his" - Rom. 8:9.