+1 for Calvinism?

[psalms109:31]

Contradiction

That contradiction that you see has not come from me but your own mind.

When I talk to people I find myself in a circle repeating something I said some where else.

You cannot live on pieces of scripture, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.

We only want to see where men want to point us and never the whole truth.

Jesus came into His own sheep, but His own sheep received Him not.

So Disowned them. His sheep are the one's walking with Him, and those who are not are disowned.

Do not be arrogant but afraid, if God did not spare the nataral branches He will not spare us either.

The goats where used to lead sheep into the pit of death.

Walk with Jesus and you will never be lead into the pit.

Don't you all love this song, Here how it goes.

When we walk with the Lord in the light of His Word,
What a glory He sheds on our way!
While we do His good will, He abides with us still,
And with all who will trust and obey.

Refrain

Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

Not a shadow can rise, not a cloud in the skies,
But His smile quickly drives it away;
Not a doubt or a fear, not a sigh or a tear,
Can abide while we trust and obey.

Refrain

Not a burden we bear, not a sorrow we share,
But our toil He doth richly repay;
Not a grief or a loss, not a frown or a cross,
But is blessed if we trust and obey.

Refrain

But we never can prove the delights of His love
Until all on the altar we lay;
For the favor He shows, for the joy He bestows,
Are for them who will trust and obey.

Refrain

Then in fellowship sweet we will sit at His feet.
Or we’ll walk by His side in the way.
What He says we will do, where He sends we will go;
Never fear, only trust and obey.
Are for them who will trust and obey.

Refrain

Then in fellowship sweet we will sit at His feet.
Or we’ll walk by His side in the way.
What He says we will do, where He sends we will go;
Never fear, only trust and obey.

 

[psalms109:31]

love

Now that we are no longer on the weight of the law and depend on Jesus for our salvation.

Now we can move on to love.

Romans 13:8
[ Love, for the Day is Near ] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

 

[Jeep Dragon]

You cannot walk away from Him and think you will be saved.

If you disown Jesus He will disown you.

Seeing that salvation is the most important occurrence in anyone's existance, someone, please explain to me exactly what one must do to be saved.

I need precise examples. I need some sort of checklist.
Telling me that I must endure to the end or take up my cross daily to be saved is not very clear-cut. It doesn't help!

If you tell me that I can find the answers in the Bible, I would agree, but where does one draw the line? The Bible says that we are all sinners! We sin whether we are saved or not? Where is the dividing line between enduring and not enduring?

I'm sorry if I'm coming across too harsh, but I'm playing as an unsaved advocate who really wants the answers.

The doctrine of enduring to the end to be saved can only be found in one verse:

(Mat 10:22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

The word "saved" is generic and implied being delivered from something. When we are first saved, we are saved from the punishment of sin. When we are sanctified, we are saved from the power of sin. When we pass away, we are saved from the presence of sin (final stage in salvation).

This verse is referring to being rescued from the affliction of the ones who hate you for being a Christian. If you endure to the end, you will be saved from all this mess! No one will hate you or persecute you anymore. You are finally saved! This is the context if this passage. If one is not careful, one can confuse being saved from the presence of sin and filter the whole Bible through this narrow idea of salvation. Also, take verses that have nothing to do with salvation and make them say such.

Please, people, whether your point of view is emphasized on God's sovereignty or man's free will concerning salvation, get this... the one's who ARE saved are the ones who BELIEVE in Jesus. The Bible more than stresses that.

 

[Allan]

According to scripture all that is required for man to be saved are as follows.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

And

Jhn 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Specifically regarding the process of how one comes to beleive


This is an excert by me from another thread dealing with same issue:
Salvation is Christ alone - plus nothing and minus nothing.
This means from beginning to end - it is HIS work and not yours.

Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith;

Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hbr 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Hbr 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Hbr 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee

Scriptures like Chirst the author and finisher of our faith - How can YOU withdraw something that is maintained/held by another - much like Christ that holds you in his hand and no man (no one- even you) can pluck you out. For what He has given is ETERNAL Life. Note: it is everlasting that we may NEVER perish. It is not contingent upon us to keep but Him who is Faithful and this Eternal life is not later after death but NOW in our life before Death. Death were is your sting!
We as beleivers CAN NOT draw back from God for He WILL NOT ALLOW IT. That is the Chastening of the Father upon His children. That the correction WILL bring them back into a right relationship with Him. Also and lest we not forget we are His family by blood, His children and as such are forever in His family and His presense not becuase we are good boys and girls but because it was His pleasure to give us these things. Lastly my friend - God said HE will NEVER leave you, nor Forsake you. He did not say If you will be good enough then at the end I will stay. Rather He states: No matter what, I am your Father and will always be so.

The contexts of the scripture that is quoted of "...enduring till the end, you will be saved..." -
First - is a prophesy of the end time (Revelation or what have you) to the Jew. But is proporly understood and in context when looking at at other scriptures on endure:

2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
2Ti 4:6 ¶ For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Endure here (concerning continuing under persecution/affliction) is the same Mat 24:13 endure to the end. The "Shall be saved" is also the same with regard to the fulness of that salvation and rewards. We see this not only in the above but throughout scripture. Our works do not merit salvation or the maintaining of it, but a life lived for Christ will be rewarded that we may glory even more in the one who gave us the strength to endure!

Second - IF your verse means what you extrapilate from it (that being if we deny not Christ, He will not deny us) then we have a HUGE problem with Peter who denied Christ three times. But when Jesus confronted Him, He said nothing about the denials but asked Do you love me, and Peters remark was "Lord You KNOW I do."

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This includes ourselves.

 

[Allan]

Plainly put:

Salvation is beleiving God will do everything He said (concerning salvation.)

IF we do not beleive God will do what He said, then we have not believed unto salvation (for we do not truly trust God) and therefore stand in condemnation.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

We just cannot disreguard other scripture to come to our own conclustion.

We who believe, who disown Jesus and never retured, have never believed or we would of never walked away from Jesus. Us going proves we never apart of the salvation that is in Jesus Christ.

It was just a seed that was on the outside of our heart that satan stole from us or we just let trials and tribulations choke it out.

 

[Allan]

Psalms:
Stop tap dancing and deal with the scriptures given. If there is scripture that contradicts what you state, then your personal view of scripture is incorrect and needs to be re-evalutated.

That goes for any view for anyone.
What I stated (God IS our salvation and we can never be parted from the one who promised never to leaved) negates the view of God offering us (seed) a way to be saved but it is up to us to keep our salvation. IMHO (and I am well studied on the cults) this is a dirivitive of momonism (in view of salvation), and or psuedo-Jehovah Witness theology.

The fact God states He will never leave you nor forsake you (and only one of many) - is a direct contradiction to your view.

Leave - to slacken or loose; as in God will not loose himself from you (ie.to walk away)
Forsake - to leave behind or desert; as in God will not desert you. (ie. to disown)

If we are the body of Christ as beleivers (as says the scriptures) God can not disown and or leave Himself. Jesus was one in the Father just as we are one in the Father through Christ Jesus - and He IS the author (beginning) and the finisher (completion) of our faith (totallity of salvation - sanctification, justification ect...)

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

Jesus will never leave us or forsake us, but we can leave Him, and as the scripture says, if we disown Jesus He will disown us.

Until you stop living in a dream world accept the scripture as they are said, you will never understand them.

Scripture plainly says, we are not to be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either. The natural branches was cut out for unbelief.

We want to only believe in scripture that agrees with our doctrine and cast out one's that doesn't, but God says we must live on every word that comes from the mouth.

As we are apart of Jesus, Jesus cannot disown Himself.

If we walk away from Jesus we walk away from the grace of God.

John 8:
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

 

[jne1611]

Jesus will never leave us or forsake us, but we can leave Him, and as the scripture says, if we disown Jesus He will disown us.

Until you stop living in a dream world accept the scripture as they are said, you will never understand them.

Scripture plainly says, we are not to be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either. The natural branches was cut out for unbelief.

We want to only believe in scripture that agrees with our doctrine and cast out one's that doesn't, but God says we must live on every word that comes from the mouth.

As we are apart of Jesus, Jesus cannot disown Himself.

If we walk away from Jesus we walk away from the grace of God.

John 8:
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

The only dream world on this thread is yours. Paul said:
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And yet you say the opposite. You say we can be separated. Tell me that hell is a demonstration of the love of God in Christ Jesus! If you cannot, then that means if a child of God goes there, they have been separated. It is you that need to wake up.

 

[Allan]

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

A couple of things:
1. Note the word "IF" in vs 6 - This does not necessitate that one can fall away but is correlating that "IF" it ever happened they can "NEVER" be saved a second time.

2. IMPORTANT: Now "IF" you can leave salvation (deny Christ and therefore lose it) as stated above you can never regain it. This leaves a Huge problem for ALL of the disciples of Christ, specifically the apostles that fled Christ (thus denying Him) and most specifically Peter who did it three times!

Now IF what you state is true and we deny Him (and therefore forfeit salvation) Then according to scripture PETER (specifically) was now and forever was to be a non-christian.

IF what Peter did was EXACTLY what Jesus said one should NEVER do;
Why did Jesus NOT rebuke Peter for his denial of his Saviour, the very same person who stated -

Jhn 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God

This leads us to alot of questions but I will only ask these:
When scriptures states those who deny Me (Jesus), I will deny them...

1. Is this refering to a moment (or the moment) a denial is made, or is it refering to a life lived contrary (living denial) to Him which they profess?

2. Is Jesus showing them that only true beleivers are those who are marked by a life changed BY Him who saved them (Holy Spirit), and that anyone contrary is not truely OF Him???

A true believer can not LIVE in a life style of wickedness, without constant conviction (remorse of what they have done) and chastening of the Lord. Why, because we have been changed from the inside out - given a new nature (granted that contends with the old but it CAN be overcome) AND have been given the Holy Spirit that we WILL overcome and be empowed to be what we COULD NEVER be without these. Able to live a life pleasing unto the Lord!

 

[psalms109:31]

wscripture

The only dream world on this thread is yours. Paul said:
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And yet you say the opposite. You say we can be separated. Tell me that hell is a demonstration of the love of God in Christ Jesus! If you cannot, then that means if a child of God goes there, they have been separated. It is you that need to wake up.

I definately agree with that scripture and also the scripture that states that if we disown Jesus He will disown us.

So do not be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either. The natural branches was cut out for unbelief.

In mens own arrogance men want to believe no matter what they do they cannot be separated from God even if scripture tells them if they disown Jesus He disown you. Nothing can separate us from God's love accept as the scripture says if we disown Jesus He will disown us.

We are to abide in Jesus, if we do not abide we are good for nothing but the fire.

There is those who will say they did this and that in Jesus name and Jesus will simply say I never knew you go away you evil doer.

 

[jne1611]

I definately agree with that scripture and also the scripture that states that if we disown Jesus He will disown us.

So do not be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either. The natural branches was cut out for unbelief.

In mens own arrogance men want to believe no matter what they do they cannot be separated from God even if scripture tells them if they disown Jesus He disown you. Nothing can separate us from God's love accept as the scripture says if we disown Jesus He will disown us.

We are to abide in Jesus, if we do not abide we are good for nothing but the fire.

There is those who will say they did this and that in Jesus name and Jesus will simply say I never knew you go away you evil doer.

Tell me if you can. What is arrogant about trusting Christ to get me to heaven & not myself?

 

[jne1611]

A couple of things:
1. Note the word "IF" in vs 6 - This does not necessitate that one can fall away but is correlating that "IF" it ever happened they can "NEVER" be saved a second time.

2. IMPORTANT: Now "IF" you can leave salvation (deny Christ and therefore lose it) as stated above you can never regain it. This leaves a Huge problem for ALL of the disciples of Christ, specifically the apostles that fled Christ (thus denying Him) and most specifically Peter who did it three times!

Now IF what you state is true and we deny Him (and therefore forfeit salvation) Then according to scripture PETER (specifically) was now and forever was to be a non-christian.

IF what Peter did was EXACTLY what Jesus said one should NEVER do;
Why did Jesus NOT rebuke Peter for his denial of his Saviour, the very same person who stated -

This leads us to alot of questions but I will only ask these:
When scriptures states those who deny Me (Jesus), I will deny them...

1. Is this refering to a moment (or the moment) a denial is made, or is it refering to a life lived contrary (living denial) to Him which they profess?

2. Is Jesus showing them that only true beleivers are those who are marked by a life changed BY Him who saved them (Holy Spirit), and that anyone contrary is not truely OF Him???

A true believer can not LIVE in a life style of wickedness, without constant conviction (remorse of what they have done) and chastening of the Lord. Why, because we have been changed from the inside out - given a new nature (granted that contends with the old but it CAN be overcome) AND have been given the Holy Spirit that we WILL overcome and be empowed to be what we COULD NEVER be without these. Able to live a life pleasing unto the Lord!

Excellent points!

 

[psalms109:31]

Trusting in Jesus Christ

How are you trusting in Jesus Christ if you disown Him?

 

[jne1611]

How are you trusting in Jesus Christ if you disown Him?

The text says :
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
The context of the first part of this verse is not salvation. You can lose rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, but not salvation. It is Christ's faithfulness concerning salvation that is important. It does not give the true believer license to sin. We do not treat the doctrine this way, but we do know we are secure in him & his keeping power.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
This man could have been destroyed by Satan, his body that is & yet saved.
One thing that you have not considered is chastisement for the believer. We do not preach that you can live as you want without repercussion. God chastises His own for disobedience, but that has no bearing whatsoever on their ultimate salvation!

 

[psalms109:31]

I agree with all those scriptures

It isn't our work that saves us, it is trusting in the work of Jesus that saves.

Disowning Jesus is disowning His work He did for you for your salvation.


All our work will be burned up, but our trusting in Jesus work will never be burned up.

You have to believe every word that comes from the mouth of God.

If you disown Jesus He will disown you.

Do not be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either.

So continue in God kindness by trusting in Jesus or you also will be cut out as the natural branches was for unbelief.

 

[jne1611]

It isn't our work that saves us, it is trusting in the work of Jesus that saves.

Disowning Jesus is disowning His work He did for you for your salvation.


All our work will be burned up, but our trusting in Jesus work will never be burned up.

You have to believe every word that comes from the mouth of God.

If you disown Jesus He will disown you.

Do not be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either.

So continue in God kindness by trusting in Jesus or you also will be cut out as the natural branches was for unbelief.

Your obstinate to any truth except your own ideas.

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

Be careful what you say about someone can also be said about you.

I am just showing you scripture that you are forgetting about.

I have agreed with all your scripture, but you just can't believe the scripture that if you disown Jesus He wil disown you.

You can't pick and chose what scripture you want ty believe in.

 

[jne1611]

Be careful what you say about someone can also be said about you.

I am just showing you scripture that you are forgetting about.

I have agreed with all your scripture, but you just can't believe the scripture that if you disown Jesus He wil disown you.

You can't pick and chose what scripture you want ty believe in.

I have already showed you that Christ cannot deny himself & will not disown his people. The Scripture does not say disown, it says deny!

 

[psalms109:31]

Abide

John 15
The Vine and the Branches
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[The Greek for prunes also means cleans. ] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;

As long as we abide in Jesus we will never be disowned because Jesus can't disown Himself, but it is also true that if we disown Jesus He will disown us.

Look at both sides of the coin, not on the only side you want to see.