Dave G
Well-Known Member
No, I do that to better differentiate the words that the AV puts into italics.
As far as I am aware, I have never read an edition that does that.
Not that there weren't, but I cannot recall ever seeing one.
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1 John 2:2
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
As far as I am aware, I have never read an edition that does that.
Not that there weren't, but I cannot recall ever seeing one.
I had to edit my post for accuracy. Small roman type was used for supplied words in english in 1611.
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§ 1. ITALICIZED WORDS OR PHRASES
The King James version was originally printed in the type style known as "black letter," which has the following appearance:
Words of the translation which were supplied to make the sense clear, but which were not represented in the Greek text used by the translators, were often set in small "roman" type:
In later editions, the ordinary text was set in roman type, with the supplied words in italics:
When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled.
This typographical feature was not employed very consistently in the 1611 edition; in many places the supplied words are not indicated as one might expect. This inconsistency was probably the fault of the printer's compositors, who very often modified even the spelling of words in order to lengthen or shorten a line of type.
The editors of the 1769 Oxford edition undertook, therefore, to regularize the use of italics by italicizing all words of the translation which did not have a counterpart in the text of Stephens 1550. Consequently, modern editions of the King James version are much more heavily italicized than the original: In Matthew, the 1611 edition uses roman type 69 times, whereas the more exact 1769 edition uses italics 384 times. The reader should be aware of the fact that the King James version is not, strictly speaking, a translation of Estienne 1550; and so in some cases the modern italics are misleading if used as an indication of the readings upon which the version is based. For example, in Mark 8:14 the modern editions italicize the words the disciples because they are not in Estienne, but it is evident that here the King James translators were following, as usual, the text of Beza 1598, where the words hoi mathetai are found. The following is a complete list of such cases.
Changes in the King James version
The King James version was originally printed in the type style known as "black letter," which has the following appearance:
Words of the translation which were supplied to make the sense clear, but which were not represented in the Greek text used by the translators, were often set in small "roman" type:
In later editions, the ordinary text was set in roman type, with the supplied words in italics:
When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled.
This typographical feature was not employed very consistently in the 1611 edition; in many places the supplied words are not indicated as one might expect. This inconsistency was probably the fault of the printer's compositors, who very often modified even the spelling of words in order to lengthen or shorten a line of type.
The editors of the 1769 Oxford edition undertook, therefore, to regularize the use of italics by italicizing all words of the translation which did not have a counterpart in the text of Stephens 1550. Consequently, modern editions of the King James version are much more heavily italicized than the original: In Matthew, the 1611 edition uses roman type 69 times, whereas the more exact 1769 edition uses italics 384 times. The reader should be aware of the fact that the King James version is not, strictly speaking, a translation of Estienne 1550; and so in some cases the modern italics are misleading if used as an indication of the readings upon which the version is based. For example, in Mark 8:14 the modern editions italicize the words the disciples because they are not in Estienne, but it is evident that here the King James translators were following, as usual, the text of Beza 1598, where the words hoi mathetai are found. The following is a complete list of such cases.
Changes in the King James version
Abbreviations:
S - Stephens 1550
B - Beza 1598
E - Elzevir 1624
C - Complutensian Polyglot 1522
Er - Erasmus 1527
Vul - Clementine Vulgate 1592
Tyn - Tyndale 1535
Gen - Genevan Bible 1560
Bish - Bishops Bible 1568
Mark 8:14 Modern editions italicize the disciples, in accordance with S E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon B.
Mark 9:42 Modern editions italicize these, in accordance with S B E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon C Vul.
John 8:6 Modern editions italicize as though he heard them not at end of verse, in accordance with S B E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon C S1546 S1549 and the Bishops' Bible.
Acts 1:4 Modern editions italicize them after assembled together with, in accordance with S E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon B.
Acts 26:3 Modern editions italicize because I know, in accordance with S E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon B.
Acts 26:18 Modern editions italicize and before to turn, in accordance with S E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon B.
1 Cor 14:10 Modern editions print the words of them in ordinary type, in accordance with S B E. But the text of 1611 had them in italics, in accordance with Vul.
Heb 12:24 Modern editions italicize that of before Abel, in accordance with S B E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon Er.
1 John 3:16 Modern editions italicize of God after love, in accordance with S E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon C B.
Rev 11:14 Modern editions italicize and before behold, in accordance with S. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon B Vul.
Rev 19:18 Modern editions italicize both before free, in accordance with S B E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon C.
S - Stephens 1550
B - Beza 1598
E - Elzevir 1624
C - Complutensian Polyglot 1522
Er - Erasmus 1527
Vul - Clementine Vulgate 1592
Tyn - Tyndale 1535
Gen - Genevan Bible 1560
Bish - Bishops Bible 1568
Mark 8:14 Modern editions italicize the disciples, in accordance with S E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon B.
Mark 9:42 Modern editions italicize these, in accordance with S B E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon C Vul.
John 8:6 Modern editions italicize as though he heard them not at end of verse, in accordance with S B E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon C S1546 S1549 and the Bishops' Bible.
Acts 1:4 Modern editions italicize them after assembled together with, in accordance with S E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon B.
Acts 26:3 Modern editions italicize because I know, in accordance with S E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon B.
Acts 26:18 Modern editions italicize and before to turn, in accordance with S E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon B.
1 Cor 14:10 Modern editions print the words of them in ordinary type, in accordance with S B E. But the text of 1611 had them in italics, in accordance with Vul.
Heb 12:24 Modern editions italicize that of before Abel, in accordance with S B E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon Er.
1 John 3:16 Modern editions italicize of God after love, in accordance with S E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon C B.
Rev 11:14 Modern editions italicize and before behold, in accordance with S. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon B Vul.
Rev 19:18 Modern editions italicize both before free, in accordance with S B E. But the text of 1611 was probably based upon C.
What is the topic of this thread?
1 John 2:2
and he is the means of salvation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole of humanity.
Only Calvinists deny this obvious truth.
They deny John 3:16 says God gave His unique Son because He loved fallen humanity. Apparently the actual idea is God sent His Son to save rocks and birds, according to Calvinism.
Calvinism claims Christ did not die for the whole of humanity, never mind He laid down His life as a ransom for all.
1 John 2:2
and he is the means of salvation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole of humanity.
Only Calvinists deny this obvious truth.
They deny John 3:16 says God gave His unique Son because He loved fallen humanity. Apparently the actual idea is God sent His Son to save rocks and birds, according to Calvinism.
Calvinism claims Christ did not die for the whole of humanity, never mind He laid down His life as a ransom for all.
Question: If salvation does not depend upon the persons who will to be saved and thus put their faith in Christ, why does it depend on God crediting the person's faith as righteousness?
Answer: Salvation depends on the person who calls (God Almighty) who both tells us it is our job to believe in the One He sent, and then credits (or not) our worthless dirty rag faith as righteousness according to His will. A person could will to be saved and put their faith in Christ, but not be saved because God chose to not credit their faith as righteousness. For example, see the second and third soils of Matthew 13.
Everyone believing (as credited by God) is placed within Christ, thus everyone believing into Him (John 3:16) will not perish but have eternal life. Christ is indeed the means of Salvation for the whole of humanity, and when God puts an individual into Christ based on accepting their belief, they are saved forever, because Christ promised not to cast them out. John 6:37
Answer: Salvation depends on the person who calls (God Almighty) who both tells us it is our job to believe in the One He sent, and then credits (or not) our worthless dirty rag faith as righteousness according to His will. A person could will to be saved and put their faith in Christ, but not be saved because God chose to not credit their faith as righteousness. For example, see the second and third soils of Matthew 13.
Everyone believing (as credited by God) is placed within Christ, thus everyone believing into Him (John 3:16) will not perish but have eternal life. Christ is indeed the means of Salvation for the whole of humanity, and when God puts an individual into Christ based on accepting their belief, they are saved forever, because Christ promised not to cast them out. John 6:37
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, Van.
The verse does not say that.
It says "propitiation", which means "appeasement".
In the Greek, the word is , " ἱλασμός", and properly translated it means "satisfaction", among other English words.
It also says "world" or "all the world"...
1 John 2:2.
Not "the whole of humanity".
I'm not a follower of John Calvin.
I believe that they teach that God sent His Son to be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world...
The "world" of those who believe on His Son.
Yes, I believe that you are correct in this observation.
I also happen to agree with them on this, as well as many other teachings.
Also, according to the underlined,
I see that the "all" in Hebrews 2:9 is actually further defined in the verses that follow it...
Hebrews 2:10-18.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Ask the Lord.
He does indeed credit a person's faith as righteousness...
But where does that faith that formerly dead-in-sins saints use to do many things in this life, come from?
Hebrews 12:2.
Then it is merited, is it not?
If this is indeed the way it works,
then what men do or do not do with the Gospel is what God uses to determine who to save and who not to save.
Isn't that a merit versus de-merit system?
Van, God is not a respecter of persons.
He doesn't care what we do to "deserve" His grace, as we all deserve everlasting punishment.
Salvation is by grace through faith...
not because of it.
Good evening to you, sir.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
One more reply before I take my leave, Van, and to re-address the OP:
From my perspective,
What you've submitted in the above is what is loosely known as paraphrasing, not translation.
Stated another way,
I see that you've imposed your own understanding of the words upon the text, instead of translating it, word-for-word ( or as closely as possible given the differences between English and Greek ).
In the underlined, you've substituted "the means of salvation" in place of "propitiation" / "appeasement" / "satisfaction" for the corresponding Greek word " ἱλασμός"...
While also substituting "whole of humanity" in place of "world" for the corresponding Greek word of " κόσμου".
If you are convinced that that sort of thing is permissible within the realm of faithfully translating God's precious and immutable words into other languages,
Then we will have to agree to disagree...
and I might add, I find that I must do so in as strongly a manner as is possible while remaining obedient to the Lord in matters of personal conduct.
To me,
it's one thing to personally understand a portion of God's words in a manner that does or does not strictly agree with what is written...
It's quite another to re-translate the Scriptures to fit what you believe that it says.
Please consider the above in the spirit that it is given,
and may God bless you with much wisdom and knowledge in your continuing studies of His word.
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I see DaveG has again denied the obvious.
First he denies he is a Calvinist. But he is.
Then he claims Christ does not provide the means of salvation. But He does.
Then he claims Christ did not become the means of salvation for the whole of humanity. But He is.
Then he claims trusting in Christ merits salvation. But it does not. See Matthew 13.
Then he claims God does not respect persons. But He does, according to His value system. For example He opposes the proud, but GIVES grace to the humble.
Then he claims those that trust fully in Christ "deserve" salvation. But then faith would not be according to grace, unmerited favor.
And lastly he claims translating 1 John 2:2 accurately and with clarity is a paraphrase. But the translation is a word or phrase meaning for word or phrase meaning direct substitution.
Bottom line, "propitiation of God's wrath for our sins is our salvation for our sins. Thus Christ is the means of salvation for the whole of humanity, everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 2:2
and he is the means of salvation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole of humanity.
John 3:16
God loved humanity in this way, He gave is uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life.
First he denies he is a Calvinist. But he is.
Then he claims Christ does not provide the means of salvation. But He does.
Then he claims Christ did not become the means of salvation for the whole of humanity. But He is.
Then he claims trusting in Christ merits salvation. But it does not. See Matthew 13.
Then he claims God does not respect persons. But He does, according to His value system. For example He opposes the proud, but GIVES grace to the humble.
Then he claims those that trust fully in Christ "deserve" salvation. But then faith would not be according to grace, unmerited favor.
And lastly he claims translating 1 John 2:2 accurately and with clarity is a paraphrase. But the translation is a word or phrase meaning for word or phrase meaning direct substitution.
Bottom line, "propitiation of God's wrath for our sins is our salvation for our sins. Thus Christ is the means of salvation for the whole of humanity, everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 2:2
and he is the means of salvation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole of humanity.
John 3:16
God loved humanity in this way, He gave is uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life.
The various meanings of kosmos, 'world,' in the N.T. are to be found here:
“Kosmos” in John 3:16 – by AW Pink | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind
it needs to be stressed that if kosmos in 1 John 2:2 means 'all humanity,' then God is propitiated toward all humanity and therefore all humanity is saved. But we know that God is not propitiated toward all humanity (eg. Psalms 7:11; John 3:18; 1 Thes.1:7-9). Therefore 1 John 2:2 does not mean 'all humanity.'
“Kosmos” in John 3:16 – by AW Pink | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind
it needs to be stressed that if kosmos in 1 John 2:2 means 'all humanity,' then God is propitiated toward all humanity and therefore all humanity is saved. But we know that God is not propitiated toward all humanity (eg. Psalms 7:11; John 3:18; 1 Thes.1:7-9). Therefore 1 John 2:2 does not mean 'all humanity.'
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Calvinists point out kosmos has a range of meanings for the purpose of denying its meaning as used by John - humanity or the corrupt value system of fallen humanity.
Next Calvinists turn a noun into a verb to claim propitiation does not mean "the means of salvation" but rather "the act of salvation" however that is not the meaning, it is a corruption, a rewrite to deny the truth of scripture.
Bottom line, "propitiation of God's wrath for our sins is our salvation for our sins. Thus Christ is the means of salvation for the whole of humanity, everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 2:2
and he is the means of salvation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole of humanity.
John 3:16
God loved humanity in this way, He gave is uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life.
Next Calvinists turn a noun into a verb to claim propitiation does not mean "the means of salvation" but rather "the act of salvation" however that is not the meaning, it is a corruption, a rewrite to deny the truth of scripture.
Bottom line, "propitiation of God's wrath for our sins is our salvation for our sins. Thus Christ is the means of salvation for the whole of humanity, everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 2:2
and he is the means of salvation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole of humanity.
John 3:16
God loved humanity in this way, He gave is uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life.
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Twaddle. You use that word a lot. You could at least use a few synonyms to make it appear your vocabulary is bigger:
twaddle
[ˈtwädl]
NOUN
- trivial or foolish speech or writing; nonsense.
"he dismissed the novel as self-indulgent twaddle"
- synonyms
nonsense · rubbish · balderdash · gibberish · claptrap · blather · blether · rot · tripe · hogwash · baloney · drivel · bilge · bosh · bull · bunk · guff · eyewash · piffle · poppycock · phooey ·
Yet another Calvinist seeking to disparage me rather than address the topic. This is literally how they defend false doctrine and hide truth.
Calvinists point out kosmos has a range of meanings for the purpose of denying its meaning as used by John - humanity or the corrupt value system of fallen humanity.
Next Calvinists turn a noun into a verb to claim propitiation does not mean "the means of salvation" but rather "the act of salvation" however that is not the meaning, it is a corruption, a rewrite to deny the truth of scripture.
Bottom line, "propitiation of God's wrath for our sins is our salvation for our sins. Thus Christ is the means of salvation for the whole of humanity, everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 2:2
and he is the means of salvation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole of humanity.
John 3:16
God loved humanity in this way, He gave is uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life.
Romans 3:25
whom God displayed publicly as the means of salvation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God's merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished;
Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brothers so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to provide the means of salvation for the sins of the people.
1John 2:2
and He Himself is the means of salvation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole of humanity.
1John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the means of salvation for our sins.
John 3:16
God loved humanity in this way, He gave is uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life.
The gospel is so simple children can understand it...
whom God displayed publicly as the means of salvation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God's merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished;
Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brothers so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to provide the means of salvation for the sins of the people.
1John 2:2
and He Himself is the means of salvation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole of humanity.
1John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the means of salvation for our sins.
John 3:16
God loved humanity in this way, He gave is uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life.
The gospel is so simple children can understand it...
it needs to be stressed that if kosmos in 1 John 2:2 means 'all humanity,' then God is propitiated toward all humanity and therefore all humanity is saved. But we know that God is not propitiated toward all humanity (eg. Psalms 7:11; John 3:18; 1 Thes.1:7-9). Therefore 1 John 2:2 does not mean 'all humanity.'
Note the effort at disinformation. First the word is used to refer to humanity. Another word in 1 John 2:2 refers to the whole or all of.
Then, it is claimed the word means God is propitiated. But the word refers to the means of salvation, which is Christ. To have any individual's wrath from God turned aside, the individual must be placed within Christ, thus in His propitiatory shelter.
Within Christ = saved
Not within Christ = unsaved.
Note the effort at disinformation. Kosmos is used in a variety of ways, as pointed out in post #37. First the word is used to refer to the physical world. Here in John 2:2, it refers to the whole physical world (see post #17).
Secondly, if Christ is our propitiation, someone has to be propitiated by Christ. That someone is the Father; His justice and righteous anger against sin must be satisfied.. To effect the salvation of guilty sinners, God gave to the Lord Jesus Christ a vast crowd of them to redeem. (John 6:39 etc.). This He has done at measureless cost to Himself, propitiating the Father's righteous anger against sin by paying in His own Person for their sins. Not one of these will be lost.
Every elect sinner is united to Christ, and is transferred or conveyed 'into the kingdom of the Son of His love' (Colossians 1:13). But the election does not take place after we believe, but in eternity past. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.' 'The one who comes to Me i will by no means cast out.'
Note the defense of Calvinism uses absurdity to hide truth. In 1 John 2:2 the Greek word "kosmos" is being used to refer to humanity, not rocks and birds and such. They do not sin. But this Calvinist simply posts these absurd arguments to hide the fact Christ is the means of salvation for the whole of humanity, and everyone believing (as credited by God) shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 6:39 refers to all those God has placed in Christ (given), and in no way supports the idea that Christ did not lay down His life as a ransom for all.
And since we are chosen through or by reason of faith in the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13) our individual election occurs after we have lived without mercy, 1 Peter 2:9-10.
John 6:39 refers to all those God has placed in Christ (given), and in no way supports the idea that Christ did not lay down His life as a ransom for all.
And since we are chosen through or by reason of faith in the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13) our individual election occurs after we have lived without mercy, 1 Peter 2:9-10.
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