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1 John 2:2
- Thread starter Piper
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I did not say they did not use the bible, but from what I have seen on BB and other boards the calvinist thinks their calvinism is the standard and the bible is secondary. If the clear contextual reading does not support their view than change the text of the bible or at least change the meaning of the words. Ex "world = elect"
I have told you before that I do not read Owen, why would you think I would? I do not agree with his view and since you said he "He wrote the book on the doctrines of grace, literally." and I see the DoG as destroying the character of God, it gives me even less reason to read his material.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Sure looks like God was waiting for those that received Him to trust in Him before He gave them the right to be children of God
So it is not unbiblical it is scriptural.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Tulip Truths have biblical support, its the Truth of scripture, the Gospel, you reject Tulip Truth, you reject the Gospel of Gods Sovereign Grace.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
It doesnt matter what you say, 1 Jn 2:2 is about the elect.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
So you believe that Christ died and shed His Blood for people, redeeming them by His Blood and they still die in their sins and go to hell ? Yes or No
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
BF it is not me you are disagreeing with, it is the bible. You are saying that the word "world G2889" really means "elect G1588". Do you think John or the Holy Spirit were so dumb that they did not know the difference between those words.
BF your allegiance to calvinism is shocking. It is to sad that you do not show the the same loyalty to God and His word.
1Jn 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,
and
not for ours only
but
also for the whole world.
You see no problem with twisting His word to fit your theology. What you are doing is wilful and you will be held to account for it. My God have mercy on you.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Yes world means elect in 1 Jn 2:2
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So what your saying is that you BF know more than John and the Holy Spirit. You think you have to correct the inspired word of God. Your arrogance is showing again BF.
The Whole World in 1 John 2:2
One cannot change the heart of a person who is focused on himself as the determiner of his own destiny.
Do you see how you project your own bias into your post as an insult?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
What I said is not an insult it is factual. Read through BF's posts. He continues to impose his views over that text of scripture and even wants to change the meaning of words found in scripture. That is arrogance.
You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. Your comments are backhanded insults and you should be wise enough to know this. Go back and read what you wrote. You should be ashamed.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Well of course you would point to a calvinist site as support of your calvinist view. That still does not alter the fact of what the text actually says.
1Jn 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,
and
not for ours only
but
also for the whole world.
I understand that you find these words hard to deal with as they do not fit your theology. But there in lays the problem for the calvinist. Calvinism is not the standard, the bible is and you just have to learn to trust what it says rather than trust what some man tells you it says.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
What is the insult, pointing out that when you think you know more than the Holy Spirit that is just arrogance. What would you call it?
We are to humble ourselves before God not try to correct His inspired word.
Read your personal projection, which he didn't say, but you certainly did say. Notice how you personally accuse him. Silverhair, you are wrong to do that. You have spoken poorly and been insulting.
If you are unable to see this, then you are simply unable to see.
Silverhair, do you believe in universal payment for all sins? If you don't, then you are not taking the words of the text literally.
You caress this verse and add your own interpretation to it by declaring that it is not true, if a person does not express belief in Jesus propitiation. For that sin, you deny Jesus has done enough. So, you also have to interpret this verse in order to hold your view. You are no different than a calvinist as you also must look beyond this verse in order to hold your position.
The only position that can be held with no explanation is the position of universal salvation for all the world so that all humans are saved and no one goes to hell. Is that the position you hold? Because that is what John would be saying if we didn't allow the rest of scripture to interpret this verse.
Are you a universalist?
I am not. But, when you just quote the verse and leave it at that, the only conclusion would be the view of universalism.
So, are you a universalist?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
These are comments by BF
Tulip is the Gospel of Gods Grace ! # 224
His opinion, it's wrong but it is his opinion
It doesnt matter what you say, 1 Jn 2:2 is about the elect. # 244
This verse is about the believer and the unbeliever. Pointed out his error but he will not see it
Yes world means elect in 1 Jn 2:2 # 247
Here he has moved from opinion to stating fact. World G2889 means Elect G1588. That is changing the meaning of words. that is arrogance. He wants to correct the Holy Spirit.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 is the elect whole world !
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I understand that, Im witnessing the Gospel Matt 24:14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You asked if I believed in the universal payment of sins which I would take that you are referring to 1 John 2:2 since that is what we have been speaking about.
Now you refer to a payment for sins but what does the verse actually say
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Now you say I add my own interpretation but your the one that is changing the text of the verse. Propitiation is not payment that is just something that you have imported into the text. Now I have pointed out your error numerous times but you still insist on holding to your errant view. Why is that @taisto?
Now I have taken this opportunity to include the relevant definition again
Definition you need to know
Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of one making propitious. {in biblical theology, God} 1Jn_2:2
Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God. Webster
Do you see what is missing "payment". So the question becomes, why do you keep insisting on adding to the text of the bible by reading into the text a concept that is not there.
Actually you are the one that claims the Jesus has not done enough. The verse says that He did all He had to do, He was the propitiation for all of humanities sins. This allows God to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow. blessings.
Now let us circle back to your first comment
"Silverhair, do you believe in universal payment for all sins? If you don't, then you are not taking the words of the text literally."
Propitiation
That by which God is rendered propitious, i.e., by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners. Easton's Bible Dictionary
The idea of propitiation is borrowed from the sacrificial ritual of the OT, and the term is used in the EV [Note: English Version.] of the NT in three instances (Romans 3:25, 1 John 2:2; 1John 4:10) of Christ as offering the sacrifice for sin which renders God propitious, or merciful, to the sinner. JAMES HASTINGS Dictionary of the Bible
It is never used of any act whereby man brings God into a favorable attitude or gracious disposition. It is God who is "propitiated" by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
I am taking the words of 1 John 2:2 literally, you are attempting to import your calvinist philosophy into the text.
I am curious where you come up with your, shall we say, interesting views of 1 John 2:2.
Take this one
"The only position that can be held with no explanation is the position of universal salvation for all the world so that all humans are saved and no one goes to hell."
How do you equate propitiation to all being saved? The only way you can come to that view is by reading into the text what is not there.
Or this one.
"Because that is what John would be saying if we didn't allow the rest of scripture to interpret this verse."
If we allow the rest of scripture to inform scripture as it does not need the rest of scripture to interpret it as it is clear on it's own.
So what verses can we use to expand on 1 John 2:2 to round out the information found there.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
In the biblical understanding the underlined phrase would indicate the whole world.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
So you see Christ as the Propitiation enabled God to be Propitious to us when we were sinners so that we could be saved when we met His condition, Faith in His son Christ Jesus.
Now perhaps you can stop with your false accusations and misrepresentation of what I have said.
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