1 John 2:2

[Salty]

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[RipponRedeaux]

It doesnt matter what you say, 1 Jn 2:2 is about the elect.

Yes, elect from all over the globe.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

1Jn 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,
and
not for ours only
but
also for the whole world.

"Our sins" is referencing the Jews. "The whole world" refers to the elect from around the world.

 

[taisto]

You asked if I believed in the universal payment of sins which I would take that you are referring to 1 John 2:2 since that is what we have been speaking about.

Now you refer to a payment for sins but what does the verse actually say
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Now you say I add my own interpretation but your the one that is changing the text of the verse. Propitiation is not payment that is just something that you have imported into the text. Now I have pointed out your error numerous times but you still insist on holding to your errant view. Why is that @taisto?

Now I have taken this opportunity to include the relevant definition again

Definition you need to know
Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of one making propitious. {in biblical theology, God} 1Jn_2:2
Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God. Webster

Do you see what is missing "payment". So the question becomes, why do you keep insisting on adding to the text of the bible by reading into the text a concept that is not there.

Actually you are the one that claims the Jesus has not done enough. The verse says that He did all He had to do, He was the propitiation for all of humanities sins. This allows God to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow. blessings.

Now let us circle back to your first comment
"Silverhair, do you believe in universal payment for all sins? If you don't, then you are not taking the words of the text literally."

Propitiation
That by which God is rendered propitious, i.e., by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners. Easton's Bible Dictionary

The idea of propitiation is borrowed from the sacrificial ritual of the OT, and the term is used in the EV [Note: English Version.] of the NT in three instances (Romans 3:25, 1 John 2:2; 1John 4:10) of Christ as offering the sacrifice for sin which renders God propitious, or merciful, to the sinner. JAMES HASTINGS Dictionary of the Bible

It is never used of any act whereby man brings God into a favorable attitude or gracious disposition. It is God who is "propitiated" by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

I am taking the words of 1 John 2:2 literally, you are attempting to import your calvinist philosophy into the text.

I am curious where you come up with your, shall we say, interesting views of 1 John 2:2.

Take this one
"The only position that can be held with no explanation is the position of universal salvation for all the world so that all humans are saved and no one goes to hell."

How do you equate propitiation to all being saved? The only way you can come to that view is by reading into the text what is not there.

Or this one.
"Because that is what John would be saying if we didn't allow the rest of scripture to interpret this verse."

If we allow the rest of scripture to inform scripture as it does not need the rest of scripture to interpret it as it is clear on it's own.
So what verses can we use to expand on 1 John 2:2 to round out the information found there.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
In the biblical understanding the underlined phrase would indicate the whole world.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

So you see Christ as the Propitiation enabled God to be Propitious to us when we were sinners so that we could be saved when we met His condition, Faith in His son Christ Jesus.

Now perhaps you can stop with your false accusations and misrepresentation of what I have said.

Propitiation refers to the turning away of the wrath of God as the just judgment of our sin by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. “Propitiation is used in the New Testament to describe the pacifying, placating, or appeasing of God’s wrath”.
Propitiation

Now read 1 John 2:2 and tell me your interpretation.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

Since God's wrath is turned away from the entire world's sins, how can you teach that God's wrath falls on people who don't believe? Tell me how you can read God's wrath into 1 John 2:2 since you obviously believe that God will cast unbelievers into hell. Where does 1 John 2:2 tell you that? It says that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. That means the wrath of God has been appeased against the whole world. Right? Or did God mean to say some, not all? Please tell us how you get out of your conundrum?

 

[Alan Gross]

The Whole World in 1 John 2:2

One cannot change the heart of a person who is focused on himself as the determiner of his own destiny.

Right. Close enough.

 

[Alan Gross]

Does 2 Peter 2:1 deny effectual atonement?

The link provides the answer.

Another good link.

Right again.

 

[Silverhair]

"Our sins" is referencing the Jews. "The whole world" refers to the elect from around the world.

Your opinions matter for naught. Back up your claims from scripture. All I have seen from you calvinists is opinion.

 

[Silverhair]

Propitiation refers to the turning away of the wrath of God as the just judgment of our sin by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. “Propitiation is used in the New Testament to describe the pacifying, placating, or appeasing of God’s wrath”.
Propitiation

Now read 1 John 2:2 and tell me your interpretation.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

Since God's wrath is turned away from the entire world's sins, how can you teach that God's wrath falls on people who don't believe? Tell me how you can read God's wrath into 1 John 2:2 since you obviously believe that God will cast unbelievers into hell. Where does 1 John 2:2 tell you that? It says that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. That means the wrath of God has been appeased against the whole world. Right? Or did God mean to say some, not all? Please tell us how you get out of your conundrum?

You still have a real problem with the text don't you. You can not read your view into propitiation and hope that I will agree.

Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious. {in biblical theology, God}
Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God. Webster

I understand that you struggle with what propitiation means. When Christ was the propitiation for all our sins it allowed God to be propitious. It is right there in front of you. How can you keep missing that?

You only focus on the words that you think will help you support your errant theology and ignore everything else. How do you expect to learn anything that way? But that seems to be common for the calvinist's that I have had to deal with.

Because God has been propitiated He can be propitious and be gracious and merciful; and ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings upon those that freely trust in His risen Son.

The calvinist proof text system does not impress me in the least. And from what I have seen very few calvinist's will use scripture to support their view and those are usually pulled out of context. I have presented you with scripture and proper definitions and you still struggle with the truth. Why is that?

I really do not care if you call yourself a calvinist or an arminian or even just a disciple of Christ as long as you support your view from clear contextual scripture.

So while you think I have a conundrum with the text it is only because what I have written does not fit into your theological grid and thus it is only in your mind.

I am sure we will cross keyboards again, it has been an interesting discussion.

 

[JonC]

Yes. The only way to truly refute Owen is to have a different view of "that which cannot be discussed".

I'm not actually fond of banning, even temporarily, theological debates that are so central to how Christians interpret Christ's work.

Differences in this area are probably among the most, if not the most, important area where entire theologies diverge.

The "name which must not be spoken" is not the only issue. Even within Calvinism exactly how the atonement relates to salvation has been debatable. It is an important subject, not to change people's minds but to arrive at an understanding of one another.

It is impossible for a non-Calvinist to evaluate Calvinism without first understanding Calvinism (and vice versa). Same with any other Christian position. One cannot reject an opposing view and simply rely on his or her understanding of Scripture. We need to understand and then examine each position (including our own) against God's Word.

 

[Alan Gross]

Who "the Lord" is in 2 Peter 2:1 is identified in cross references. Jude 1:4 and Acts of the Apostles 4:24 [Colossians 1:16-17].

I appreciate you giving cross-references.

What the Lord of creation in Acts 4:24 and Colossians 1:16-17,

has to do with Who "the Lord" is in 2 Peter 2:1, I dunno.

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

I can say that the companion scripture, in Jude 1:4, does mention the Lord Jesus Christ, but it isn't saying His Name there, in a way that would identify Him as the One having to do with having 'bought' anyone.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

This mention of 'our Lord Jesus Christ' is describing Who else those ungodly men were 'denying', in addition to 'the only Lord', not Who bought them.

While at the same time, Jude 1:4, is making a distinction between 'the only Lord' and 'our Lord Jesus Christ'.

since, 'the only Lord' is different than ' our Lord Jesus Christ', then we know 'the only Lord' is referring to God the Father.

That means that by seeing 'the only Lord' in the companion scripture Jude 1:4, as God the Father, we can know that when we double back to 2 Peter 2:1, that

'the Lord that bought them' is also referring to God the Father.

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, elect from all over the globe.

Correct Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Lk 1:68

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

 

[Salty]

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