1 John 2:2

[JonC]

The same John who wrote the Gospel of John and the epistles of John wrote Revelation.

No. John also used the whole world to mean all of mankind.

In this passage I believe John is speaking of Christ as the Propitiation (He is the Propitiation for all human sin). This does not negate limited atonement, it just dies not read limited atonement into that verse.

 

[JonC]

On the contrary. Reformed churches (non-Baptists) have given Baptism to adults upon a confession of faith, i.e. believer's baptism.

They have, along with infants. By "Believers baptism I mean the Baptistic view that we are only to baptize believers.

I also was referring to Calvinism proper.

 

[Alan Gross]

The same John who wrote the Gospel of John and the epistles of John wrote Revelation.
Christ was slain and with his blood he purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. See Revelation 5:9.

Christ died for the church of God which he purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28. It's not the church and everyone else.

Christ is the head of the church, of which he is the Savior. Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. See Eph. 5:23 to 27.

Christ died to make atonement for the sins of the people. See Heb. 2:17. What people? His people --not everyone.

Jesus was going to die for the Jewish nation, and not for the Jewish nation, but to gather together into one the scattered children of God. See John 11:51b to 11:52.

Right.

And Matthew 1:21 is a good one;
"And she shall bring forth a son,
and thou shalt call his name JESUS:
for he shall save his people from their sins."

I am going to say that I believe
that is specific people and their specific sins.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Jesus was going to die for the Jewish nation, and not only for the Jewish nation, but to gather together into one the scattered children of God. See John 11:51b to 11:52.

I had left out the 'only.' by mistake.

The elect from around the world.

 

[Silverhair]

The same John who wrote the Gospel of John and the epistles of John wrote Revelation.
Christ was slain and with his blood he purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. See Revelation 5:9.

Christ died for the church of God which he purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28. It's not the church and everyone else.

Christ is the head of the church, of which he is the Savior. Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. See Eph. 5:23 to 27.

Christ died to make atonement for the sins of the people. See Heb. 2:17. What people? His people --not everyone.

Jesus was going to die for the Jewish nation, and not for the Jewish nation, but to gather together into one the scattered children of God. See John 11:51b to 11:52.

Have you missed the fact that all those groups that you listed are actually part of the whole world. Well actually since you misunderstood what those verses are actually telling us then of course you missed that fact.

1Jn 2:2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

You know the whole world that Christ is the atoning sacrifice for. All your verses prove is that while Christ made salvation available to all it is only those that freely trust in the Son that will be saved.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

1Jn 2:2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

You know the whole world that Christ is the atoning sacrifice for. All your verses prove is that while Christ made salvation available to all it is only those that freely trust in the Son that will be saved.

[Snip]

The scattered children of God from around the world is not inclusive of all people who have lived, are living and shall live.

His people : Matthew 1:21
His sheep : John 10:11 & 14
His church : Acts 20:28
His elect : Romans 8:32 to 34
His children : Hebrews 2:13

One cannot get around the fact that each and every person who has and shall live are not included in the verses I cited above.

 

[Silverhair]

[Snip]

The scattered children of God from around the world is not inclusive of all people who have lived, are living and shall live.

His people : Matthew 1:21
His sheep : John 10:11 & 14
His church : Acts 20:28
His elect : Romans 8:32 to 34
His children : Hebrews 2:13

One cannot get around the fact that each and every person who has and shall live are not included in the verses I cited above.

I did not say that the whole world would be saved but the verse in question
1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
shows that all those those included in the verses you posted were covered by what Christ had done. [Snip]

Not everyone in the whole world will be saved but those that freely trust in the Son will be saved.

Scriptures plainly say that he did die for all. {1Ti_2:6, Rom_5:6, Rom_5:8}
And the bible even gives us the reason He died for all. That all could be saved which is the Fathers desire. {1Ti_2:3-4, 1Ti_4:10}
While He offers everyone forgiveness and salvation, unfortunately not everyone will accept His gifts.
The offer of salvation is universal—to all who will believe (Rom_10:11, Rom_10:13) but regardless of how broad Christ’s atonement is, it is limited in some respect—it is effective only for those who believe (Joh_3:18, Eph 1:13).

 

[Alan Gross]

The Part I of The Cause of God and Truth
by John Gill, D.D., beginning on page 3;

discusses 60 scriptures "made use of by Dr. Whitby
and others in favor of the Universal Scheme,
and against the Calvinistic Scheme,
in which their arguments and objections are answered,
and the several passages set in a just and proper light."

For anybody into studying about them or wanting a reference.

I John 2:2 is on page 167.

SECTION LVII.

"And he is the propitiation for our sins;
and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
- 1 John 2:2

 

[Brightfame52]

Have you missed the fact that all those groups that you listed are actually part of the whole world. Well actually since you misunderstood what those verses are actually telling us then of course you missed that fact.

1Jn 2:2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

You know the whole world that Christ is the atoning sacrifice for. All your verses prove is that while Christ made salvation available to all it is only those that freely trust in the Son that will be saved.

The ones Christ died for shall believe in Him, the fact He died for them ensures that, its only the ones whom He did not die for that will remain unbelievers Jn 10:26-27

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep[whom He died for] hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

His Sheep whom He died for are ensured to hear His voice and follow Him , Believe in Him.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Let's unpack some things.

Titus 2:11 : For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
All people means all kinds of people. All sorts of people and classes --various ranks
and ethnicities.
The same applies to 2:13.
1Timothy 2:4 : who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Context is key.
Verses 1 and 2 of the same chapter 'all' or 'everyone' means a wide net of those from all spheres of life. All kinds
of folks.
1 Timothy 2:6 : who gave himself as a ransom for all people...
Does the word ransom mean saving or non-saving? Obviously it means the former. It is absurd to foist a meaning that Christ has ransomed everyone. Christ is the actual ransom for people of every walk of life --for every racial and cultural group.
1 Timothy 4:10 : ...who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
Thomas Schreiner states :
"The words especially believers specify more precisely who is saved. In this instance the word malista could
be translated that is. The verse would then read God is the savior of all people, that is, believers." [p.185 of his book on Paul]
And Schreiner reemphasizes this on page 229 of the same book.
" When Paul speaks of God as Savior, he has in mind what God has actually accomplished in the lives of believers. The verse, then, should be understood to say that God is the Savior of all kinds of people --no people group is excluded. Then he delimits precisely what he has in mind. The word malista ('that is,' cf. 1 Tim. 5:17, Tit 1:10), means that God is the Savior of those who believe from every people group in the world."

 

[Silverhair]

The ones Christ died for shall believe in Him, the fact He died for them ensures that, its only the ones whom He did not die for that will remain unbelievers Jn 10:26-27

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep[whom He died for] hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

His Sheep whom He died for are ensured to hear His voice and follow Him , Believe in Him.

BF I have mentioned this to you before, you have to start looking at the context. Pulling verses out of context in the vain hope that they will support your view is a sure way to have an errant theology.

Read John 10:24-38 if you want to understand what your posted verses mean.

But for their pride, and prejudice, and false notions of the Messiah, and from a determination not to believe, they would have learned from His declarations and works that He was the Christ.

Jesus encouraged those whom He declared were not His sheep/followers to consider the evidence of His miracles in order to believe in Him and become His sheep/followers. John 10:37-38

I did note your addition to the text of vs 27 "My sheep [whom He died for] hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

Now since the bible is our standard and your indicating that Christ only died for His sheep then are you saying you hold to universalism because the bible tells us that Christ tasted death for everyone.
Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF I have mentioned this to you before, you have to start looking at the context. Pulling verses out of context in the vain hope that they will support your view is a sure way to have an errant theology.

Read John 10:24-38 if you want to understand what your posted verses mean.

But for their pride, and prejudice, and false notions of the Messiah, and from a determination not to believe, they would have learned from His declarations and works that He was the Christ.

Jesus encouraged those whom He declared were not His sheep/followers to consider the evidence of His miracles in order to believe in Him and become His sheep/followers. John 10:37-38

I did note your addition to the text of vs 27 "My sheep [whom He died for] hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

Now since the bible is our standard and your indicating that Christ only died for His sheep then are you saying you hold to universalism because the bible tells us that Christ tasted death for everyone.
Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

I just explained it to you.

 

[Brightfame52]

rippenred

"The words especially believers specify more precisely who is saved. In this instance the word malista could
be translated that is. The verse would then read God is the savior of all people, that is, believers." [p.185 of his book on Paul]

I agree, the word especially is also to mean particularly, so to clarify what he meant Paul wrote:

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, particularly of those that believe

We place our whole confidence in the living God, the saviour of all men, and particularly[in particular] of those who believe in him.Phillips

 

[Silverhair]

I just explained it to you.

I will say one thing for you BF. you are consistent in your refusal to understand verses in context. But now you seem to thing that you can just change the meaning of words to suit your Calvinist view. That is really sad. What is even worse is when a "scholar" Thomas Schreiner butchers the Greek language and imports his required meaning into the text..

1Ti 4:10 ... the Savior G4990 of all G3956 men G444, especially G3122 of those who believe G4103.

G3122
μάλιστα (superlative of the adverb μάλα) (from Homer down), adverb, especially, chiefly, most of all, above all: Act_20:38; Act_25:26; Gal_6:10; Php_4:22; 1Ti_4:10; 1Ti_5:8; 1Ti_5:17; 2Ti_4:13; Tit_1:10; Phm_1:16; 2Pe_2:10; μάλιστα γνώστης, especially expert, thoroughly well-informed, Act_26:3. Thayer's Unabridged Greek

G3122
μάλιστα
málista; adv., the superlative of mála (n.f.), very. Mostly, especially (Act_20:38; Act_25:26; Act_26:3; Gal_6:10; Php_4:22; 1Ti_4:10; 1Ti_5:8, 1Ti_5:17; 2Ti_4:13; Tit_1:10; Phm_1:16; 2Pe_2:10). Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary

Especially
malista (G3122), "most, most of all, above all," is the superlative of mala, "very much"; translated "especially" in Act_26:3; Gal_6:10; 1Ti_5:17; 2Ti_4:13; Php_4:22, RV (for KJV, "chiefly"); "specially," Act_25:26; 1Ti_4:10; 1Ti_5:8; Tit_1:10; Phm_1:16; in Act_20:38, "most of all. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

G3122 is found 12 times in the NT and in none of those places do we find "particularly [in particular]" or "that is" in the text of these bibles.
ABP+, BSB, ESV, KJV+, NSAB+, NKJV+, TRi+, YLT

When you have to abuse the text to make it fit your theology then that should tell you that your view is wrong.

 

[Brightfame52]

I will say one thing for you BF. you are consistent in your refusal to understand verses in context. But now you seem to thing that you can just change the meaning of words to suit your Calvinist view. That is really sad. What is even worse is when a "scholar" Thomas Schreiner butchers the Greek language and imports his required meaning into the text..

1Ti 4:10 ... the Savior G4990 of all G3956 men G444, especially G3122 of those who believe G4103.

G3122
μάλιστα (superlative of the adverb μάλα) (from Homer down), adverb, especially, chiefly, most of all, above all: Act_20:38; Act_25:26; Gal_6:10; Php_4:22; 1Ti_4:10; 1Ti_5:8; 1Ti_5:17; 2Ti_4:13; Tit_1:10; Phm_1:16; 2Pe_2:10; μάλιστα γνώστης, especially expert, thoroughly well-informed, Act_26:3. Thayer's Unabridged Greek

G3122
μάλιστα
málista; adv., the superlative of mála (n.f.), very. Mostly, especially (Act_20:38; Act_25:26; Act_26:3; Gal_6:10; Php_4:22; 1Ti_4:10; 1Ti_5:8, 1Ti_5:17; 2Ti_4:13; Tit_1:10; Phm_1:16; 2Pe_2:10). Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary

Especially
malista (G3122), "most, most of all, above all," is the superlative of mala, "very much"; translated "especially" in Act_26:3; Gal_6:10; 1Ti_5:17; 2Ti_4:13; Php_4:22, RV (for KJV, "chiefly"); "specially," Act_25:26; 1Ti_4:10; 1Ti_5:8; Tit_1:10; Phm_1:16; in Act_20:38, "most of all. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

G3122 is found 12 times in the NT and in none of those places do we find "particularly [in particular]" or "that is" in the text of these bibles.
ABP+, BSB, ESV, KJV+, NSAB+, NKJV+, TRi+, YLT

When you have to abuse the text to make it fit your theology then that should tell you that your view is wrong.

I looked the word up specially malista :

μάλιστα málista, mal'-is-tah; neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb μάλα mála (very); (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly

Particularly means specifically

 

[Silverhair]

I looked the word up specially malista :

μάλιστα málista, mal'-is-tah; neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb μάλα mála (very); (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly

Particularly means specifically

I would bet that you did not look to see how it was used in the bible. But you really don't have to do that as I gave you the information already but you just ignore it. So you must think that the inspired word of God is wrong since you do not seem to like what it says.

You left out the rest of the quote from BLB "—chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially" which is how the bible translators used the word as it fit the immediate context and the over all context of the bible. As I have said before, you struggle way to hard trying to make the text of the bible fit your theological view.

BF take off those glasses that are distorting your vision and just trust the bible as it is written.

 

[Brightfame52]

I would bet that you did not look to see how it was used in the bible. But you really don't have to do that as I gave you the information already but you just ignore it. So you must think that the inspired word of God is wrong since you do not seem to like what it says.

You left out the rest of the quote from BLB "—chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially" which is how the bible translators used the word as it fit the immediate context and the over all context of the bible. As I have said before, you struggle way to hard trying to make the text of the bible fit your theological view.

BF take off those glasses that are distorting your vision and just trust the bible as it is written.

Like I said, I looked the word up, just showed you. You not paying attention

 

[Silverhair]

Like I said, I looked the word up, just showed you. You not paying attention

BF I know you looked up the word, so did I. But you are ignoring the overall context of the bible and the immediate context of the verses where it is used. I understand that you need to support your theological position but when you do that at the expense of biblical accuracy then it is not the bible you are trusting but rather yourself.

BF just because a Greek word can be translated that way does not mean it should be translated that way. That is why context is so important. But you will believe what you want to believe.

 

[Brightfame52]

I would bet that you did not look to see how it was used in the bible. But you really don't have to do that as I gave you the information already but you just ignore it. So you must think that the inspired word of God is wrong since you do not seem to like what it says.

You left out the rest of the quote from BLB "—chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially" which is how the bible translators used the word as it fit the immediate context and the over all context of the bible. As I have said before, you struggle way to hard trying to make the text of the bible fit your theological view.

BF take off those glasses that are distorting your vision and just trust the bible as it is written.

I looked the word up specially malista :

μάλιστα málista, mal'-is-tah; neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb μάλα mála (very); (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly

Particularly means specifically

 

[Silverhair]

I looked the word up specially malista :

μάλιστα málista, mal'-is-tah; neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb μάλα mála (very); (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly

Particularly means specifically

Context matters BF and that is the big blind spot you have. You refuse to consider context as it shows that your translation does not fit. But you are not the first and I am sure you will not be the last persons to ignore what the bible says so that you can hold to your pet theology.