1 Tim 3:1-3

[evangelist6589]

Was doing my study tonight and ran across a Bible difficulty and a variation in the manuscripts which does happen a bit between the KJV and the modern versions.

The KJV/NKJV says here not given to wine, however the ESV says “not a drunkard” and the NIV says “not given to drunkedness.” This appears to be a bible difficulty in the manuscripts that the versions use, can anyone with more experience in textual criticism and the languages assist? Its not wonder that lots of KJV IFB churches hold to their view on alcohol with crucial passages like this one. So is the KJV correct or are the modern versions? Remember also the NKJV translates like the KJV here.

 

[clark thompson]

It is saying wine should be a factor in you life if you drink you should not get drunk or drink to where make bad descions.

 

[Salty]

Or is it Baptist churches hold to NO wine, ect; because they are afraid of Biblical discipline in that area?

 

[evangelist6589]

Or is it Baptist churches hold to NO wine, ect; because they are afraid of Biblical discipline in that area?

Perhaps but maybe its out of ignorance.

 

[Greektim]

I don't think it is a textual variant... just a translational choice.

But I could be wrong... my wife is in labor and having a baby as I type this!!!! (not allowed in the room)

 

[RLBosley]

I don't think it is a textual variant... just a translational choice.

But I could be wrong... my wife is in labor and having a baby as I type this!!!! (not allowed in the room)

Awesome! Congrats. Praying for you and her and the baby.

Boy or girl?

 

[Salty]

Perhaps but maybe its out of ignorance.

I would say out of willful ignorance

 

[gigabyte71]

Perhaps but maybe its out of ignorance.

If it is ignorance, it is willful ignorance. I have heard, more than once, that God hates all alcohol.

I heard someone use part of this from Proverbs to prove God hates alcohol and it is a sin to consume it. They don't even bother with context..

It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. Proverbs 31:4-5

Yet they won't continue on to these verses, which gives reasons to give strong drink and wine.

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more. Proverbs 31:6-7

 

[Deacon]

... having a baby as I type this!!!! (not allowed in the room)

What a blessing, N. Americano's have this barbaric custom of making the men attend the birth.

Best wishes on your new arrival!

Rob

 

[Greektim]

I have a son!!!

Sorry to derail the thread. But I had to get my mind off of not being w/ my wife during the process.

 

[RLBosley]

I have a son!!!

Sorry to derail the thread. But I had to get my mind off of not being w/ my wife during the process.

Great. Congrats! :thumbs::godisgood:

 

[InTheLight]

I have a son!!!

Sorry to derail the thread. But I had to get my mind off of not being w/ my wife during the process.

Wow. That's great! Congratulations.

You heard it here first, BBers!

 

[Van]

Our word (paroinos) appears twice in scripture, 1 Tim 3:3 and Titus 1:7, and is translated as addicted to wine, drunkard, and given to wine. If you look at the words which later became paroinos, you find "beside" and "wine." Since "a little wine" is advocated by Paul (1 Timothy 5:23), many believe the idea is spending too much time with wine, i.e. drinking it to excess. A secondary idea suggests "a mean drunk, i.e. brawler."

Since a significant fraction of individuals "cannot hold their liqueur" Christians have historically felt drinking sets an example which will lead some of our brothers and sisters astray, thus "Teetotaler" Christians base their abstention view in part on this verse.

 

[Deacon]

Was doing my study tonight and ran across a Bible difficulty and a variation in the manuscripts which does happen a bit between the KJV and the modern versions.

The KJV/NKJV says here not given to wine, however the ESV says “not a drunkard” and the NIV says “not given to drunkedness.” This appears to be a bible difficulty in the manuscripts that the versions use, can anyone with more experience in textual criticism and the languages assist?

A good site for comparing Greek variants is LaParola [LINK]

A rudimentary knowledge of Greek would be helpful.

Note: Fill in the page before hitting "view text"

Select:

• View the variant readings: Y
  
• The order of the manuscripts in each variant reading: by text type
  
• Show the text of Westcott and Hort: Y
  
• Show the Byzantine text: Y

You can find an on-line interlinear English-Greek testament to translate it if necessary.

You'll note that there are no variants for the phrase mentioned.

Rob

 

[jonathan.borland]

I don't think it is a textual variant... just a translational choice.

But I could be wrong... my wife is in labor and having a baby as I type this!!!! (not allowed in the room)

That's the most exciting news in this forum in a very long time. Congratulations on the birth of your little boy!

 

[franklinmonroe]

There is a variant in this verse but it does not involve the issue that was raised in the OP.

1 Timothy 3:3
not given to drunkenness, (NIV)
μὴ πάροινον (CT)

not violent (NIV)
μὴ πλήκτην (CT)

but gentle, (NIV)
ἀλλὰ ἐπιεικῆ (CT)

not quarrelsome, (NIV)
ἄμαχον (CT)

not a lover of money. (NIV)
ἀφιλάργυρον (CT)


1 Timothy 3:3
Not given to wine, (KJV)
μὴ πάροινον (TR)

no striker, (KJV)
μὴ πλήκτην (TR)

not greedy of filthy lucre; (KJV)
μὴ αἰσχροκερδῆ, (TR)

but patient, (KJV)
ἀλλ᾽ ἐπιεικῆ (TR)

not a brawler, (KJV)
ἄμαχον (TR)

not covetous; (KJV)
ἀφιλάργυρον (TR)


Note the similarities in Titus 1:7 (no significant variants between the Greek texts)--

For a bishop must be blameless, (KJV)
Since an overseer [...] he must be blameless— (NIV)
δεῖ γὰρ τὸν ἐπίσκοπον ἀνέγκλητον εἶναι (TR/CT)

as the steward of God; (KJV)
[manages God’s household,] (NIV)
ὡς θεοῦ οἰκονόμον (TR/CT)

not selfwilled, (KJV)
not overbearing, (NIV)
μὴ αὐθάδη (TR/CT)

not soon angry, (KJV)
not quick-tempered, (NIV)
μὴ ὀργίλον (TR/CT)

not given to wine, (KJV)
not given to drunkenness, (NIV)
μὴ πάροινον (TR/CT)

no striker, (KJV)
not violent, (NIV)
μὴ πλήκτην (TR/CT)

not given to filthy lucre; (KJV)
not pursuing dishonest gain. (NIV)
μὴ αἰσχροκερδῆ (TR/CT)

 

[SolaSaint]

I noticed the ASV omitted it .

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

the bible says look not upon the wine when it giveth its color or something like that.

the first mention of alcohol in the bible was not very good either.

There's plenty of verses that condemn alcohol for recreational use, and there is a the principle of abstaining from appearance of evil.

 

[RLBosley]

This is probably going to be as effective as spitting into the wind but I'm bored so here we go...

the bible says look not upon the wine when it giveth its color or something like that.

Pro 23:31 KJV Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] it moveth itself aright.​

I heard this verse so often, as you just did, in order to condemn all drinking.

However the context demonstrates this is a warning for those who are drunks, and is a prohibition of drunkenness not drinking.

the first mention of alcohol in the bible was not very good either.

The Bible also says wine is a gift from God. Noah's misuse of wine does not mean anything really. The first mentioned grain offering was rejected, does that mean all grain offerings were wrong?

There's plenty of verses that condemn alcohol for recreational use, and there is a the principle of abstaining from appearance of evil.

There are plenty of verses that praise the drinking of alcohol, it is a gift and the absence of wine is actually seen as a removal of God's blessing. As for your use of 1 Thess. 5:22 you should give this a read:

http://www.fundamentallyreformed.com/2010/05/05/the-real-meaning-of-1-thessalonians-5-22/

If you just want the cliff notes version:

The word eidos means the outward appearance of form, without any notion of unreality....Paul is urging his friends to eschew evil of every kind.

 

[GISMYS]

Who at the feast of the Lord will say,"oh Lord no wine for me as I am a good baptist"??==6 And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. isa. 25:6