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1 Timothy 3:16
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Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
franklinmonroe said:
You shouldn't give up. The people who appeared to
get confused came here confused, are untrainable,
and will leave here confused. This is NOT your fault
Brother Franklinmonroe.
Chances are, they are jealous (a sin BTW),
but I found out it is unwise to assign bad motives.
Never can tell when I might turn out to be correct and be
charged with DEFINITION OF CHARACTER :laugh:
Here is a 'cheer up' verse for Brother Franklinmonroe
(Seems Prophet Jeremiah had the same problem(s) ):
Jer 7:27-28 (KJV1611 Edition):
Therefore thou shalt speake all these wordes
vnto them, but they will not hearken to thee:
thou shalt also call vnto them, but they will
not answere thee.
28 But thou shalt say vnto them;
This is a nation, that obeyeth not the voyce
of the Lord their God, nor receiueth correction:
trueth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Askjo said:
Your verse confirms what Bro. Franklinmonroe said.
1 Timothy 3:16 does not, in some ACCURATE VERSIONs
of the Bible.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I know what I believe and it is true to the words of I Tim 2:5. Jesus is God. Jesus is Mediator.
Now if we could only get 1 Timothy 3:16 to say it.
Isn't it interesting how one can be mose sure of those doctrines
that are mentioned the most?
Ed's rule of thumb to avoid the DUH feeling:
Don't base your main doctrines on one and only one
verse in one and only one Version.
Now if we could only get 1 Timothy 3:16 to say it.
Isn't it interesting how one can be mose sure of those doctrines
that are mentioned the most?
Ed's rule of thumb to avoid the DUH feeling:
Don't base your main doctrines on one and only one
verse in one and only one Version.
Exegeting a particular verse so as to glean what that verse is actually saying, is somewhat different than trying to impose a complete systematic theology into the particular verse. The verse (II Tim. 2:5) appears relatively clear to me, in most versions, in what it is saying. I'll only cite a few versions, including some approximate dates, and not all the versions that I can get ahold of.
("I know the sentence is not a "complete sentence", there, Language Cop. I never said it was!")
Does Scripture specifically teach the Deity of Christ? Yes, at least as I read it.
Does Gen. 1:1 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? No.
Does Gen. 1:2 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? No.
Does Rom. 3:23 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? No.
Does Luke 1:1 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? No.
Does John 1:1-2, 14 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? Yes.
Does John 14:6 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? No, but it does specifically teach that Jesus is an intermediary for man to the Father.
Does II Tim. 2:5 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? No, but it does specifically teach that Jesus is the mediator between God and man.
BTW, none of the above verses come even remotely close to 'refuting' or 'denying' the Deity of Christ, but all do not even touch on it.
Is there a problem with letting the verses say exactly what they say, as opposed to attempting to read one verse into another verse, somewhere else?? That does not mean that they are opposed, in any measure, merely that they address different subjects.
Finally, how did II Tim. 2:5 get 'imported' into I Tim. 3:16, in the first place?
Ed
Uh, what is the question with the verse?? In any of the versions??
("I know the sentence is not a "complete sentence", there, Language Cop. I never said it was!")
Does Scripture specifically teach the Deity of Christ? Yes, at least as I read it.
Does Gen. 1:1 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? No.
Does Gen. 1:2 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? No.
Does Rom. 3:23 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? No.
Does Luke 1:1 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? No.
Does John 1:1-2, 14 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? Yes.
Does John 14:6 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? No, but it does specifically teach that Jesus is an intermediary for man to the Father.
Does II Tim. 2:5 specifically teach the Deity of Christ? No, but it does specifically teach that Jesus is the mediator between God and man.
BTW, none of the above verses come even remotely close to 'refuting' or 'denying' the Deity of Christ, but all do not even touch on it.
Is there a problem with letting the verses say exactly what they say, as opposed to attempting to read one verse into another verse, somewhere else?? That does not mean that they are opposed, in any measure, merely that they address different subjects.
Finally, how did II Tim. 2:5 get 'imported' into I Tim. 3:16, in the first place?
Ed
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Salamander, I am asking, for now the third time, and would like to have a response to this comment you made at the end of your post, #94.Salamander said:
What exactly is this supposed to mean, as you mentioned it in a response to me? I still don't understand what you are meaning, here, with this (partial) sentence. Is it too much to ask for a reply, somehow, as I now have done three times?
Ed
He did not say, "Jesus is not God."Askjo said:
He said, "Jesus, not God, is the mediator."
Exactly what I Tim 2:5 says!
Perhaps this illustration will help-
MAN (SINNER) - JESUS (MEDIATOR) - GOD (JUDGE)
It is not
MAN (SINNER) - JESUS/GOD (MEDIATOR) - GOD/JESUS (JUDGE)
The whole point is this- the purpose of 1 Timothy 2:5 is to show Christ's mediatory work on our behalf. It is NOT primarily a verse that is used to teach the deity of Christ, although it can be misconstrued to do so, which is effect is no different that what certain cults do with Bible verses to DENY the deity of Christ.
I offer this as proof- look at http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/deity.html. This brother does a great job of laying out the Scriptural proof for the deity of Christ and NOT ONCE does he use 1 Timothy 2:5.
And again- from an Article entitled Proving the Deity of Christ to Jehovah's Witnesses (http://www.geocities.com/benwebb.geo/trin.html):
The Watchtower claims that only Jehovah's Witnesses will have eternal life, and that we who do not agree with them (especially we who believe in the Trinity) will simply cease to exist (J Ws do not believe in a literal hell; however, an examination of this topic demands another study in itself). The J Ws have been so misinformed by The Watchtower concerning our actual concept of the Trinity, though, that they actually believe we worship the Trinity. This is simply not true. We worship God alone, through our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is our one and only mediator, as Paul states in 1 Tim. 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Incidentally, please notice Paul's statement here that Jesus is a man, not "the archangel Michael". Because the J Ws refuse to accept our concept of the Trinity, though, they may attempt to use truly ridiculous arguments against the Trinity.
I did a web search for the key words 'Scriptural proof deity Christ' and read several of the articles and NONE of them mentioned 1 Timothy 2:5 as a prooftext for the deity of Christ. As Melton (referenced above) shows, there is PLENTY of Scriptural proof for the deity of Christ WITHOUT twisting 1 Timothy 2:5 to make it appear to be one.
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franklinmonroe
Active Member
Great verses! Thanks for sharing it, Ed.Ed Edwards said:
franklinmonroe
Active Member
The reason that 1 Timothy 2:5 came into the discussion is because it was claimed to be another example (like 1 Timothy 3:16) in this same epistle where the word "God" is used to stand in for "Christ Jesus". I don't think the proponents of that interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:5 have proved their case.EdSutton said:
I had made the assertion, based upon some research (and gave 5 example verses), that Paul consistently uses the word "God" to represent the Father (or the Trinity) and "Jesus" to represent God the Son in the letter of 1 Timothy. I had challenged any one to likewise research and show us several opposing results if found.
If it is true that Paul almost always means the Father when he pens theos, then it tends to support the "He" reading of 1 Timothy 3:16; that is because it would have been unlikely for Paul to have written "God" to identify Christ Jesus against his standard convention. For reasons I have previously posted, I believe that the "He" reading does NOT diminish the Deity of Christ claim in 1 Timothy 3:16.
I agree with your post (illustrated by the various verse references) that not every verse of the Bible must explicitly teach the doctrine of the Deity of Christ for it to be true. While it would be wonderful if 1 Timothy 2:5 specifically did teach this doctrine, in applying a consistent historical-grammatical hermanuetic I have not been able to arrive at that interpretation.
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franklinmonroe
Active Member
A discussion of 1 Timothy 2:5 should not be a KJVO issue. There is no Greek variant to dispute, and there has been no criticism of the KJV translation. Yet the opinions do seem to follow the partisan lines.robycop3 said:
franklinmonroe
Active Member
Here is a fairly lengthy quote lifted from Matthew Henry's Commentary. It is interesting to notice that in his entire discussion of this 1 Timothy passage (covering vs. 4-7) there not even the slightest allusion to the Deity of Christ (italics his, bold and underline are mine)--
II. As a reason why we should in our prayers concern ourselves for all men, he shows God’s love to mankind in general, v. 4.
1. One reason why all men are to be prayed for is because there is one God, and that God bears a good will to all mankind. There is one God (v. 5), and one only, there is no other, there can be no other, for there can be but one infinite. This one God will have all men to be saved; he desires not the death and destruction of any (Eze. 33:11), but the welfare and salvation of all. Not that he has decreed the salvation of all, for then all men would be saved; but he has a good will to the salvation of all, and none perish but by their own fault, Mt. 23:37. He will have all to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth, to be saved in the way that he has appointed and not otherwise. It concerns us to get the knowledge of the truth, because that is the way to be saved; Christ is the way and the truth, and so he is the life.
2. There is one Mediator, and that mediator gave himself a ransom for all. As the mercy of God extends itself to all his works, so the mediation of Christ extends itself thus far to all the children of men that he paid a price sufficient for the salvation of all mankind; he brought mankind to stand upon new terms with God, so that they are not now under the law as a covenant of works, but as a rule of life. They are under grace; not under the covenant of innocence, but under a new covenant: He gave himself a ransom. Observe, The death of Christ was a ransom, a counter-price. We deserved to have died. Christ died for us, to save us from death and hell; he gave himself a ransom voluntarily, a ransom for all; so that all mankind are put in a better condition than that of devils. He died to work out a common salvation: in order hereunto, he put himself into the office of Mediator between God and man. A mediator supposes a controversy. Sin had made a quarrel between us and God; Jesus Christ is a Mediator who undertakes to make peace, to bring God and man together, in the nature of an umpire or arbitrator, a days—man who lays his hand upon u both, Job 9:33. He is a ransom that was to be testified in due time; that is, in the Old-Testament times, his sufferings and the glory that should follow were spoken of as things to be revealed in the last times, 1 Pt. 1:10, 11. And they are accordingly revealed, Paul himself having been ordained a preacher and an apostle, to publish to the Gentiles the glad tidings of redemption and salvation by Jesus Christ. This doctrine of Christ’s mediation Paul was entrusted to preach to every creature, Mk. 16:15. He was appointed to be a teacher of the Gentiles; besides his general call to the apostleship, he was commissioned particularly to preach to the Gentiles, in faith and truth, or faithfully and truly. Note, (1.) It is good and acceptable in the sight of God and our Saviour that we pray for kings and for all men, and also that we lead a peaceable and quiet life; and this is a very good reason why we should do the one as well as the other. (2.) God has a good will to the salvation of all; so that it is not so much the want of a will in God to save them as it is a want of will in themselves to be saved in God’s way. Here our blessed Lord charges the fault: You will not come unto me that you may have life, Jn. 5:40. I would have gathered you, and you would not. (3.) Those who are saved must come to the knowledge of the truth, for this is God’s appointed way to save sinners. Without knowledge the heart cannot be good; if we do not know the truth, we cannot be ruled by it. (4.) It is observable that the unity of God is asserted, and joined with the unity of the Mediator; and the church of Rome might as well maintain a plurality of gods as a plurality of mediators. (5.) He that is a Mediator in the New-Testament sense, gave himself a ransom. Vain then is the pretence of the Romanists that there is but one Mediator of satisfaction, but many of intercession; for, according to Paul, Christ’s giving himself a ransom was a necessary part of the Mediator’s office; and indeed this lays the foundation for his intercession. (6.) Paul was ordained a minister, to declare this to the Gentiles, that Christ is the one Mediator between God and men, who gave himself a ransom for all. This is the substance of which all ministers are to preach, to the end of the world; and Paul magnified his office, as he was the apostle of the Gentiles, Rom. 11:13. (7.) Ministers must preach the truth, what they apprehend to be so, and they must believe it themselves; they are, like our apostle, to preach in faith and verity, and they must also be faithful and trusty.
II. As a reason why we should in our prayers concern ourselves for all men, he shows God’s love to mankind in general, v. 4.
1. One reason why all men are to be prayed for is because there is one God, and that God bears a good will to all mankind. There is one God (v. 5), and one only, there is no other, there can be no other, for there can be but one infinite. This one God will have all men to be saved; he desires not the death and destruction of any (Eze. 33:11), but the welfare and salvation of all. Not that he has decreed the salvation of all, for then all men would be saved; but he has a good will to the salvation of all, and none perish but by their own fault, Mt. 23:37. He will have all to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth, to be saved in the way that he has appointed and not otherwise. It concerns us to get the knowledge of the truth, because that is the way to be saved; Christ is the way and the truth, and so he is the life.
2. There is one Mediator, and that mediator gave himself a ransom for all. As the mercy of God extends itself to all his works, so the mediation of Christ extends itself thus far to all the children of men that he paid a price sufficient for the salvation of all mankind; he brought mankind to stand upon new terms with God, so that they are not now under the law as a covenant of works, but as a rule of life. They are under grace; not under the covenant of innocence, but under a new covenant: He gave himself a ransom. Observe, The death of Christ was a ransom, a counter-price. We deserved to have died. Christ died for us, to save us from death and hell; he gave himself a ransom voluntarily, a ransom for all; so that all mankind are put in a better condition than that of devils. He died to work out a common salvation: in order hereunto, he put himself into the office of Mediator between God and man. A mediator supposes a controversy. Sin had made a quarrel between us and God; Jesus Christ is a Mediator who undertakes to make peace, to bring God and man together, in the nature of an umpire or arbitrator, a days—man who lays his hand upon u both, Job 9:33. He is a ransom that was to be testified in due time; that is, in the Old-Testament times, his sufferings and the glory that should follow were spoken of as things to be revealed in the last times, 1 Pt. 1:10, 11. And they are accordingly revealed, Paul himself having been ordained a preacher and an apostle, to publish to the Gentiles the glad tidings of redemption and salvation by Jesus Christ. This doctrine of Christ’s mediation Paul was entrusted to preach to every creature, Mk. 16:15. He was appointed to be a teacher of the Gentiles; besides his general call to the apostleship, he was commissioned particularly to preach to the Gentiles, in faith and truth, or faithfully and truly. Note, (1.) It is good and acceptable in the sight of God and our Saviour that we pray for kings and for all men, and also that we lead a peaceable and quiet life; and this is a very good reason why we should do the one as well as the other. (2.) God has a good will to the salvation of all; so that it is not so much the want of a will in God to save them as it is a want of will in themselves to be saved in God’s way. Here our blessed Lord charges the fault: You will not come unto me that you may have life, Jn. 5:40. I would have gathered you, and you would not. (3.) Those who are saved must come to the knowledge of the truth, for this is God’s appointed way to save sinners. Without knowledge the heart cannot be good; if we do not know the truth, we cannot be ruled by it. (4.) It is observable that the unity of God is asserted, and joined with the unity of the Mediator; and the church of Rome might as well maintain a plurality of gods as a plurality of mediators. (5.) He that is a Mediator in the New-Testament sense, gave himself a ransom. Vain then is the pretence of the Romanists that there is but one Mediator of satisfaction, but many of intercession; for, according to Paul, Christ’s giving himself a ransom was a necessary part of the Mediator’s office; and indeed this lays the foundation for his intercession. (6.) Paul was ordained a minister, to declare this to the Gentiles, that Christ is the one Mediator between God and men, who gave himself a ransom for all. This is the substance of which all ministers are to preach, to the end of the world; and Paul magnified his office, as he was the apostle of the Gentiles, Rom. 11:13. (7.) Ministers must preach the truth, what they apprehend to be so, and they must believe it themselves; they are, like our apostle, to preach in faith and verity, and they must also be faithful and trusty.
Sideshow?? On the Baptist Board??robycop3 said:
Nah!! Couldn't be!
Caught up??
Well, al least, Not me!!
But I do only speak for myself. However, as for you other 8,437 members on the Baptist Bo... - ???
>
>
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Excuse me, for a minute, as I notice that it is now time for my morning prayers.
"God, I thank thee that I am not as other men ar..."
Ed
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franklinmonroe
Active Member
Askjo, please submit an edifying progressive explanation of your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:5 as a prooftext of the Deity of Christ, or cease wasting our time by shooting one-liners from your hip and amusing yourself by coloring text.Askjo said:
Salamander
New Member
Well, Brother,even though I doubt you'll be expedient to admit this, but we both discussing the verses and haven't mentioned "KJVO" yet as others want to try and insert.franklinmonroe said:
I have only looked at this from the blatant perspective, as Bozonian as I could possibly be expected, but to try and separate Jesus from ever being "God" teeters on the level of being extra-biblical.
Now, if you take that as making some vile statement about your character as if I somehow slandered your person, youwill also be mistaken about it as well.
I respect what you have said concerning this verse. I just know how wrong you are to say I Tim 2:5 doesn't strengthen the fact that Jesus is God.
I only addressed you specific words that DID state the adverse. You also stated your belief to concur that Jesus is God. I concur as well.
Salamander
New Member
I wonder why you didn't realize what I did to agree with MH when I read the verse as in the statement above in bold? But then you omit the prior expalantion by MH of where he states that the "Mediator" could be no one other than God the Son due to whose blood it was that could atone for sin for every man?:jesus:franklinmonroe said:
Salamander
New Member
Since I would be ignorant to think you weren't referring to my person, I will have to ask you not to accuse me of "sin" in this fashion again.Ed Edwards said:
Although it would be most like water runing off a duck's back, I would have to report it if you did.
God Bless you, Ed, my self-appointed judge.
Salamander
New Member
Actually, if you spoke directly to me instead of a sort of condemning way: in the third person, that would become possible.franklinmonroe said:
You have offered thoughts worth study, but they are still simplisticly overturned by the verse itsself.
Salamander
New Member
Apology accepted, but I do hope you saw, by your same reasoning, that is what you meant for me and anyone else, to have thought.franklinmonroe said:
May we move on towards edification of one another and those who feel vindicated in reporting my posts to refrain from such CHILDISH antics?
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