Featured 10 Misconceptions of the RCC

My Quote:
Mary to the catholic way of thinking is the "feminine face of God" . So please dont tell me she isnt worshiped because you'd be lying.

Thinking Stuff Quote: Only by people who aren't properly educated in the Catholic Faith. Mary is not a "feminine face of God" nor is she a "goddess". Mary to the Catholic way of thinking is the New Eve. The woman recapitulated by God. This is what the Catholic Church Actually teaches regarding Mary

My response: I guess Thinking Stuff that you would have to take that up with Father Richard Rohr -O.F.M & founder of the center for Action & Contemplation in Albuquerque, NM.....it was his commentary. I believe he was educated at Notre Dame & in Rome.

 

So let me get this right... The RCC church states "these are infallible statements now" so please note:

1. The Assumption of the physical body of Mary into heaven.

2. The Immaculate Conception.

Is that correct?

Is all this & the "New Eve" stance found in Scripture?

 

I don't think you place close attention to what you read. I am speaking specifically to sin and man's condition of sin.

Where I think you are off is the assumption that the only way someone to be "saved" from sin is "saved out of their sin". My suggestion is that you can be "saved" in two manners. Preventatively, or before entering into sin. Catholics believe that Mary is saved from sin not out of sin. Humanity in General is saved out of sin.

Seriously? I used an observation by someone in a specified field who commented on the nature of "saving someone". The application can be made to things beyond alcoholism or mental health. And since it wasn't I who made that observation but someone else I gave credit to them by quoting them. Again I'm not making a statement about "physical salvation" as I believe salvation from God to be whole and entire. I'm am using the same principle and applying it to Salvation from our state of sin so as to explain in a way you can understand.

Yes Mary need salvation from sin. But Jesus Christ did it pre-emptively.

Yes, whether it be pre-emptive ie by intervention, or out of ie by rehabilitation.

Now your feigning begins. Of course you understand my point unless you haven't even really read what I have posted.

Yes!

Do you mean "she concieved by the Holy Spirit rather than by intercourse with Joseph? I would agree.

By both parents. If we are ever to the point of cloning the clone would be in sin nature. Thus if you cloned the woman and only used her genetic material the clone would be in sin. The human condition entire both men and women are in sin and twisted away from God. We are not ordered properly both men and women. Thus

I disagree. God prepared her from the begining as a ark of the incarnation.

Not true. God can seperate her from sin apart from a heretage line.

Not at all it give the dignity back to women that Eve lost.

Funny but it was the bible that let me back to Catholicism.

Nope.

"Hear O' Israel the Lord thy God is one" There is no other God. Honoring someone because of a role they played is not the same as the worship of God. Kings, Queens in the bible are often venerated but they are not thought of as God.

Amen! I agree!

luke 1:27

We don't give Glory to Mary. Honor certainly.

Everyone has worth however I'm curous as to which prayer you are referring to where Catholics say "Mary thou art worthy." as referrencing Rev. I can't think of one. Now she may have worth because of her role. But not as a deity.

thus we don't give her the glory and honor or power that is directed to God alone. We do not worship Mary as God. Plain and simple.

I've already explained this several times. I'm speaking about spiritual things as well. You mistakenly applied it to physical alone. I've never even suggested that. I am as I have consistently been speaking to sin and sin nature.

Not at all.

I've already suggested it may have been you or someone else I'm not sure. However, are you suggesting God didn't have Mary in mind when he spoke to the prophet that a virgin should concieve? I disagree. I believe God had Mary in Mind when he prophesied it to Eve. I find it strange that you may find it that the Elect are chosen before their making for salvation and that they will can never not be saved from before their creation yet God haphazardly chose Mary not electing her for the special service before her creation? Seems inconsitent to me.

And so God rolled the dice and it came up Mary? Is that what you really believe?

I don't worship Mary. And God didn't choose Mary haphazardly.

They weren't absurd. They were pointed. You just want to use this argument because in reality you know that it is true a person can be saved by intervention or by rehabilitiation and I'm not speaking to "physical salvation" as you call it.

I quoted your words. And where I didn't know whether they were your word or not I said so.

 

Not really because if that is what he believes he needs to go back to Seminary and read the Catachism because I quoted straight from the Catachism itself. If you want to have him communicate with me I will be glad to inform him of his error in front of my Bishop.

 

Do you have a problem with the assumption of Enoch or Elijah? Do you have a problem thinking God elected Mary and prepared her for the specific purpose of giving birth to his Son?

 

Just show me the scripture where she was ascended.

 

Scripture tells us that Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven. The last mention of Mary the mother of Jesus Christ is Acts 1:14. After that there is no reference at all to her. Anything about the immaculate conception and the ascension of Mary is simply fiction.

God chose Mary to give birth to Jesus Christ just as God chose Israel to bring Jesus Christ into the world.

Nothing in Scripture supports the fiction the Roman Catholic Teaching Magisterium and the Pope have concocted about Mary.

 

Now your defaulting to a catholic Bishop? Tell your bishop he wrote the book many of your churches are marketing now titled "Why be Catholic" & thats the question I am constantly asking you! However I am just doing this to show you that there is so much of this ambiguity floating around & allot of this still gets promoted. Much of my catechism was this & from Sisters of Christian Charity, from priests of both Benedictine & Jesuit orders.... so I know allot of this shit floats around. this is the result of having the RC clergy always reading & interpreting the gospels instead of the laity doing it themselves.

 

That was my point OR .... but thanks for giving him the counterpoint to argue from. just let him produce it scripturally.

 

I agree with some of what you are saying. There are Catholics that go too far.
Catholics go too far when they begin to give to Mary that honor which belongs soley to God.
However it is nearly impossible to say by any action or even word who has actually crossed the line so to speak. We simply cannot know what is in the heart of an individual.

Mary is just a creature but she is model of the highest perfection (be it done unto me according to your word) we creatures can ever hope to attain and so she is respected for her this level of perfection because it shows her love for the One and True God who lacks nothing in Divinity.

 

There are only two things one needs to know here.
1. We are sinners by birth (the depravity of man). We sin by nature.
2. We sin because we want to sin, and are therefore responsible for our sin.
Mary was guilty on both counts.

Then the Catholics are wrong. It is that simple.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That statement, (and the word "all") includes Mary. Mary was a sinner at birth. There is no such Biblical teaching as the Immaculate Conception. She was not a sinless person, but a sinful person, as her admission of her need of a Savior is duly noted. So also her action of a sin offering. Both of these show that even she recognized she was a sinner, both by birth and by action.
That is the reason she needed to be saved.
God did not save her before she sinned. She was saved because she had sinned. A judge pronounces me guilty after I commit a crime, not before a crime is ever committed. It is only then that the penalty for the crime can be paid (atonement), not before.

Saved from drug addiction is physical salvation, not spiritual.

This is simply a vain man's opinion. It has no ground in the Scripture. Give chapter and verse.

I give you Scripture; you give me philosophy. I take the revelation of God over a vain man's philosophy.

There is only one kind of salvation in the Bible--spiritual. It is a salvation from sin, death, hell--that which Jesus conquered on the cross. There is no need to bring salvation from drug addiction and mental health into this discussion at all as you did.

Not even Augustine agrees with your position.
In Genesis 3:15 the promise was to Eve that the Messiah would come from "the seed of a woman." Women do not have "the seed." The virgin birth was promised as far back as in the Garden of Eden.

Now look at the promise to Abraham:
Genesis 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
--The seed is always of the man. It is through the seed that the sin nature passes.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
--It was not through Eve, but through Adam that sin entered the world.
It was not through Eve, but through Adam that death came by sin.
It was not through Eve, but through Adam that death passed upon all men. That sentence of death is the result of the sin nature that is passed on through the Adamic seed. It has nothing to do with Eve or with Mary.

Mary was not conceived by Joseph, but by the Holy Spirit, thereby passing the sin nature of man. If Mary had a sin nature (and she did) it would make no difference, for she conceived through the Holy Spirit.

She was simply a vessel used by God.

How ironic! God is not great enough to separate Christ from sin, but great enough to break the heritage line and separate Mary from sin!! That is strange theology indeed! It seems as if you believe in a weakened god.

Nothing was given back to Mary. All creation, including Mary, was (and is now) under the curse. Mary grew old and died. Her body was buried. There is no empty tomb for Mary. She is a dead person like the rest of the dead awaiting the resurrection. She succumbed to the second law of Thermodynamics just like everyone else. We are all under the Curse, because of Adam.

Because of bad experiences, and ultimately, unbelief.

"Give honor where honor is due." the Bible says.
Respect them that are over you, it also says.
But it never says to venerate them. Thus you are in the wrong.

Venerate:
Synonyms: adore, deify, glorify, revere, reverence, worship
(From Merriam-Webster)
It seems clear to me that when one venerates another they worship him.
The veneration you give to Mary is clearly worship.

If you truly believed Revelation 4:11 you would not be giving glory and honor to Mary. For that glory and honor is due only to God. All glory and honor is his. He alone is worthy as Rev.4:11. He will not tolerate the worship that the RCC gives to another.

 

And do you bow down and "worship" them for their worth?
"Worship" means "worth" + "shippe" = ME meaning worthiness or respect to a divine being.

"Hail Mary full of grace...."
"Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners now..."
The worth of Mary as being given the title of the mother of God; as being given the power to answer prayer; as given the power even to hear and then intercede on behalf of approximately one billion Catholics, thereby making her omnipresent, and omniscient, attributes that belong only to God, is nothing short of blasphemous.

Oh, it is plain and simple; very plain and simple, even to the degree of blasphemy.

And Mary has both.

First there is not need to confuse the subject of election, predestination, with the providence of God and free will of man all in one post.
Second, it goes without saying that God is omniscient, and knows the end from the beginning. However, he does not allow his omniscience to hinder the choices and free will of man. Man does what he does because of his sin nature.
Third, this is not a matter of election. It is a matter of what God did, or could have providentially done. The RCC at this point is putting a headlock on God and telling God that he cannot do anything else but choose Mary because that is what the RCC has commanded God to do. They don't leave any room for God to do anything else outside of their theology. They are very demanding of God, the god of their choice, not the God of the Bible.

Again, you put your headlock on God and think that the great RCC can force God to work within the confines of the RCC organization. God providentially chose Mary. He had his reasons, unknown to you or me. When you get to heaven you can ask him why Mary was chosen. I can assure you that it was not because of the dictates of the RCC.

 

Mary said yes to the biggest question ever asked a woman in all history, The Annunciation and a virgin birth to mention a few qualities. The Church honors her with multiple days, more than any other human. She is the model for all humans.

Let's add she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit from a divine prespective as well as St. Joseph in our earthly lives. She and Joseph had to figure out how to raise the Son of God, find a place to birth Him, hide in Egypt and then she shared deeply in every other aspect of His life and Passion for all mankind. Her heart was tied closely to Jesus from the moment of conception. Her sorrow was more than we would care to experience.

 

Would you not prefer to use Christ as your model of perfection?

 

DHK said: 'as being given the power to answer prayer; as given the power even to hear and then intercede on behalf of approximately one billion Catholics, thereby making her omnipresent, and omniscient, attributes that belong only to God, is nothing short of blasphemous.'

Mary does not ''answer'' prayer. She intercedes. And the problem with that would be? Nothing, the scriptures show us that those saints that have gone before us intercede (Rev. 8:4) Mary is outside time as she is in Heaven and in eternity, trying to apply human rules to that seems pointless.

Mary can do nothing apart from God's power. She hears the prayers of us here by God's power, not hers.

 

He is the perfect model of perfection. No doubt.

 

You probably wont come right out and admit it, but it's a mother thing isnt it. My father, when he converted to catholicism felt a great sensitivity to Mary worship... he had loved his mother & she was taken from him while he was fairly young. If your being honest, I would have to say you catholics are quite the mommy's boys. Amazing how this male oriented church has always found a way to exalt Mary .... why I can even remember every day in Catholic School in May the "Coronation of Mary" as Queen of Heaven & Earth.

 

Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.

I am having some difficulty finding intercede in the Scripture you referenced. Could you help me out?

Is the above statement based on Scripture? If not what is the basis for such a belief?

 

Mary cannot intercede. Only Christ can do that.

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
--Only one intercessor--Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
--Only Christ can intercede, Christ and Christ alone.
It is heresy to think that Mary can do the work of Christ.

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
--This is highly symbolic, and there is much imagery in this apocalyptic book.
First, there is no one praying.
Second, it is the smoke of the incense that arises before God.
Third, it is that smoke that is offered with the prayers of the saints. Both together are an offering before God. They come from an angel, not the saints.

Revelation 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
--That is not the usual answer to prayer is it?

 

My mother had eight children and she never lost a single one of us for three days?