10 Misconceptions of the RCC

[Walter]

Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.

I am having some difficulty finding intercede in the Scripture you referenced. Could you help me out?



Is the above statement based on Scripture? If not what is the basis for such a belief?

We know from James 5:16 that the prayers of the righteous are powerful, and we know from Matthew 22:32 that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. In Revelation 5:8, it says that 24 elders in heaven present our petitions to God in the form of incense, which means that there are intermediaries in heaven who hear and present our prayers to God. If the dead rich man in hell can intercede for his brothers on earth with Abraham (Luke 16:27-28), how much more can Mary in heaven intercede for us here on earth with her son Jesus!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In Scranton, a cathedral named St. Ann's (Mary's Mother) they have a supposed bone fragment from St. Ann. Each year, you stand in line in order to have a priest touch you with it. Dont go askin me why each year we did it....its a blur....but even as a boy I thought it was kinda ridiculous (actually bizarre would be the more appropriate feeling).

 

[DHK]

We know from James 5:16 that the prayers of the righteous are powerful, and we know from Matthew 22:32 that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Don't take Scripture out of context, or at least understand the words of Jesus. The command of Scripture also includes not to pray to the dead, such as Saul did when he went to the witch of Endor and Samuel appeared to him.
Mary is dead. Praying to a dead person is what is called necromancy. It is condemned in the Bible, and the Israelites that practiced such were stoned to death.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--There is the definition of death: the body without the spirit defines death. Mary doesn't have her body and is therefore dead. If you go into a cemetery, and pray to those that are dead, that is necromancy. It is the same thing when you pray to Mary; pray to the dead saints. It is wrong.

In Revelation 5:8, it says that 24 elders in heaven present our petitions to God in the form of incense, which means that there are intermediaries in heaven who hear and present our prayers to God. If the dead rich man in hell can intercede for his brothers on earth with Abraham (Luke 16:27-28), how much more can Mary in heaven intercede for us here on earth with her son Jesus!

The rich man could not interceded for himself or his brothers. Read the story. His torment was not eased, nor was Lazarus sent to his brothers. Those in hell will never have any prayer answered. Once you are there, you are there, and there is no hope left for you.

Look back at the previous post.
Heb.7:25; 1Tim.2:5; Rom.8:34; These all declare that there is only one intercessor; only one who can intercede for you. It is not the saints in heaven; not Mary; not even the Pope himself can intercede for you. Only Christ can. He is our intercessor. No one can take his place.

You have a choice. You can believe the Bible, or believe RCC philosophy. That is a decision you must make.

 

[OldRegular]

We know from James 5:16 that the prayers of the righteous are powerful, and we know from Matthew 22:32 that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. In Revelation 5:8, it says that 24 elders in heaven present our petitions to God in the form of incense, which means that there are intermediaries in heaven who hear and present our prayers to God. If the dead rich man in hell can intercede for his brothers on earth with Abraham (Luke 16:27-28), how much more can Mary in heaven intercede for us here on earth with her son Jesus!

You are using parables and symbolic language to draw unwarranted conclusions. Interceding in prayer for the living [And God is the God of the living.] Is a far cry from believing that some one who has died and presumably in Heaven can intercede with God for us.

Scripture tells us: 1 Timothy 2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

When we pray we can only pray in the Name of Jesus Christ. He alone is our mediator. The fiction of the Teaching Magisterium or whatever is simply that, fiction and has nothing to do with the truth.

God has no mother, there is no queen of Heaven and God certainly doesn't need any assistance in His Sovereign rule over His creation. The only Saints are those who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

And a very well said to you, DHK, in the above post!

 

[OldRegular]

Mary said yes to the biggest question ever asked a woman in all history, The Annunciation and a virgin birth to mention a few qualities. The Church honors her with multiple days, more than any other human. She is the model for all humans.

No one denies that Mary was chosen to bring Jesus Christ into the world but that is it.

Let's add she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit from a divine prespective as well as St. Joseph in our earthly lives.

Mary is not the spouse of the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in Scripture to support that nonsense! She was the spouse of Joseph and had children to prove it!

She and Joseph had to figure out how to raise the Son of God, find a place to birth Him, hide in Egypt and then she shared deeply in every other aspect of His life and Passion for all mankind.

Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem at the decree of Caesar, not because they figured out anything. Certainly God was in control and the birthplace was in prophecy. They hid in Egypt because God told them to do so, not because of insight on their pert. And just to be honest Mary did not understand all that was going on.

Her heart was tied closely to Jesus from the moment of conception. Her sorrow was more than we would care to experience.

She was the mother of the human nature of Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ was crucified she had sorrow as any loving mother would. If she was indeed the person you people have made her she would have understood that Jesus Christ had to be crucified. Also Mary had a few other children I am sure that she cared for.

It is well to keep in mind that Mary is not mentioned after the 1st Chapter of Acts except in the minds of those in the RCC, the ECC, and the Orthodox who have developed the heretical fiction surrounding this woman. And that is the great mystery, WHY!

 

[OldRegular]

In Scranton, a cathedral named St. Ann's (Mary's Mother) they have a supposed bone fragment from St. Ann. Each year, you stand in line in order to have a priest touch you with it. Dont go askin me why each year we did it....its a blur....but even as a boy I thought it was kinda ridiculous (actually bizarre would be the more appropriate feeling).

I know bone lasts a long time but looks like it would be worn out from all that touching!

 

[OldRegular]

A sad but true story. Several years ago my wife had occasion to talk to a dear lady, a refugee from up north. How the conversation turned to religion I do not know. Anyhow the lady was a Roman Catholic. She told my wife that she knew a lot about Mary but almost nothing about Jesus Christ. That tells you the tragedy that the RCC has foisted on the world and it is very sad.

 

[Walter]

No one denies that Mary was chosen to bring Jesus Christ into the world but that is it.



Mary is not the spouse of the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in Scripture to support that nonsense! She was the spouse of Joseph and had children to prove it!

Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem at the decree of Caesar, not because they figured out anything. Certainly God was in control and the birthplace was in prophecy. They hid in Egypt because God told them to do so, not because of insight on their pert. And just to be honest Mary did not understand all that was going on.


She was the mother of the human nature of Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ was crucified she had sorrow as any loving mother would. If she was indeed the person you people have made her she would have understood that Jesus Christ had to be crucified. Also Mary had a few other children I am sure that she cared for.

It is well to keep in mind that Mary is not mentioned after the 1st Chapter of Acts except in the minds of those in the RCC, the ECC, and the Orthodox who have developed the heretical fiction surrounding this woman. And that is the great mystery, WHY!

She would be called spouse of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived by the Holy Spirit

Joseph took her into his home and cared for her, but her spouse - the one by whom she was with child - was the Holy Spirit.

Mary's union with the Holy Spirit is more real than any possible relationship between humans.

Then you say Mary was 'the mother only of Jesus human nature'. So, then you don't believe Jesus was born fully Divine? I don't know what other conclusion could be made.

CCC
494 At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace

 

[Revmitchell]

She would be called spouse of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived by the Holy Spirit

Joseph took her into his home and cared for her, but her spouse - the one by whom she was with child - was the Holy Spirit.

Mary's union with the Holy Spirit is more real than any possible relationship between humans.

Then you say Mary was 'the mother only of Jesus human nature'. So, then you don't believe Jesus was born fully Divine? I don't know what other conclusion could be made.

There are just no words to address something this stupid.

 

[DHK]

She would be called spouse of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived by the Holy Spirit

This is ridiculous.
In conclusion Mary was a polygamist.
The angel said to Joseph (while Mary was with child), "Fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." She was already considered the wife/spouse of Joseph. Now she has another spouse? Walter you have Mary committing polygamy!!

Joseph took her into his home and cared for her, but her spouse - the one by whom she was with child - was the Holy Spirit.

Joseph was married to her according to Matthew one.
According to you Mary was committing adultery. There can only be one spouse. She didn't have a spouse and then a divorce. What is this game you are playing?

Mary's union with the Holy Spirit is more real than any possible relationship between humans.

And you are a mystic!
God did a supernatural act within the body of Mary. That is all. Her body was used of the Lord to bring forth Jesus Christ. In all that time Christ never gave up his divinity.

Then you say Mary was 'the mother only of Jesus human nature'. So, then you don't believe Jesus was born fully Divine? I don't know what other conclusion could be made.

Mary is not the mother of God. Jesus was fully God when he entered that womb. He never gave up his divinity.

CCC
494 At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace

There is much that is wrong here. Besides that, our authority is the Word of God, not the Catechism.
First, Mary had many sins, like any other person. She was a sinner, "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Mary was no exception.
Second, redemption is all of God. Christ provided redemption on the cross. Mary had no part in it whatsoever.
Third, redemption is not a mystery. If it is a mystery to you, then perhaps you are not saved. You need to understand what redemption is so that you can be saved.
Fourth, all of us are dependent on Christ, not just Mary.
But Mary is dead. She waits for the redemption of her body, which will be at the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[saturneptune]

I'll review these and post more thoughts about them later. Needless to say that I'm in agreement that these are misconseptions.

Sure you will, since you are so objective about the RCC. Everyone of them is the absolute truth. The only miracle of the RCC is that some members come to salvation in Jesus Christ despite the Catholic infrastructure hindering faith in Christ at every stage of Christian maturity.

I have always wondered though, does the holy water you sell go through a Britta water filter? Also, I have always wondered, if a vampire drank the blood after one of communion services that has been transsubstantiated, would the vampire have extra powers?

 

[saturneptune]

She would be called spouse of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived by the Holy Spirit.?

Another talking point for your cult. Mary was the spouse of Joseph. End of story. She was used by God to bring Jesus Christ into this world. That does not make her divine or sinless. Only faith in Jesus Christ does that.

Joseph took her into his home and cared for her, but her spouse - the one by whom she was with child - was the Holy Spirit.?

Did the Holy Spirit marry Mary? (Dont get confused at the double word) Did the Holy Spirit plan to divorce Mary when she was found with child? Did the Holy Spirit take Mary and Jesus to Eygpt? Was the Holy Spirit standing by Mary when Jesus was 12, and they found Him in the temple? Did the Holy Spirit teach Jesus the carpentry trade?

Mary's union with the Holy Spirit is more real than any possible relationship between humans.

Baloney, there is no marital relationship, in any aspect, between spirit and flesh. Christ said there were no such relationships in heaven. The reference in Genesis, concerning the Sons of God and the daughters of men intermarrying refers to the lines of Cain and Seth.

Then you say Mary was 'the mother only of Jesus human nature'. So, then you don't believe Jesus was born fully Divine? I don't know what other conclusion could be made.

Go back to theology 101. Christ is fully divine and fully man.

CCC
494 At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace

This is not inspired Scripture, and was written by an organization that denies the Gospel. It might as well have been written by the person who publishes Superman Comics.

 

[OldRegular]

She would be called spouse of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived by the Holy Spirit

That is simply incorrect!

Joseph took her into his home and cared for her, but her spouse - the one by whom she was with child - was the Holy Spirit.

Joseph was her spouse, they had marital relations, and children. If the Holy Spirit was her spouse as you claim Mary and Joseph would have been guilty of adultery.

Mary's union with the Holy Spirit is more real than any possible relationship between humans.

If that were true Mary would not have been a virgin would she. You see how sick your false doctrine is.

The Mormons have a similar belief. There are a number of similarities between the RCC and the LDS, particularly a works based salvation.

Then you say Mary was 'the mother only of Jesus human nature'. So, then you don't believe Jesus was born fully Divine? I don't know what other conclusion could be made.

Then you are revealing your ignorance. Jesus Christ was fully human and fully Divine, two natures in one person. In the Trinity there are three persons but one Divine Nature. The Chalcedon Creed has a pretty good explanation except they stick in the heretical phrase "Mother of God".

CCC
494 At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus.

Whatever CCC is it is wrong! Scripture says nothing to imply that Mary was sinless. She was a virgin. used by God to bring the Savior into the world.

Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace

Other than giving birth to Jesus Christ Mary had nothing to do with redemption, not even her own. I believe that before the foundation of the world God chose some unto Salvation in Jesus Christ. God will bring these to Salvation and will keep them. For this reason I don't doubt that there are many Christians within the RCC. In fact I believe I know a few!

That being said some of the doctrines of the RCC are straight out of the pits of hell. The idea that the pope stands in the place of Jesus Christ on earth, the infallibility of the pope, the supremacy of the Teaching Magisterium over Scripture [see below], the the perpetual virginity of Mary, the immaculate conception of Mary, the worship of Mary, Mary as co-redeemer, the heirarchy of the RCC, celibacy of the priesthooh, the entire concepts of works salvation, the concept that works earn merit and possible sainthood, the list is almost endless and the longer the RCC exists the worse it will get.

Pope John Paul was cozying up to the Buddhists and islam before he died. Did he have a super-dooper world religion in mind? God knows but does anyone else.

The Magisterium or Teaching Authority of the Church

by Fr. William G. Most

By the Magisterium we mean the teaching office of the Church. It consists of the Pope and Bishops. Christ promised to protect the teaching of the Church : "He who hears you, hears me; he who rejects your rejects me, he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me" (Luke 10. 16). Now of course the promise of Christ cannot fail: hence when the Church presents some doctrine as definitive or final, it comes under this protection, it cannot be in error; in other words, it is infallible. This is true even if the Church does not use the solemn ceremony of definition. The day to day teaching of the Church throughout the world, when the Bishops are in union with each other and with the Pope, and present something as definitive, this is infallible. (Vatican II, Lumen gentium # 25). It was precisely by the use of that authority that Vatican I was able to define that the Pope alone, when speaking as such and making things definitive, is also infallible. Of course this infallibility covers also teaching on what morality requires, for that is needed for salvation.

A "theologian" who would claim he needs to be able to ignore the Magisterium in order to find the truth is strangely perverse: the teaching of the Magisterium is the prime, God-given means of finding the truth. Nor could he claim academic freedom lets him contradict the Church. In any field of knowledge, academic freedom belongs only to a properly qualified professor teaching in his own field. But one is not properly qualified if he does not use the correct method of working in his field, e.g., a science professor who would want to go back to medieval methods would be laughed off campus, not protected. Now in Catholic theology , the correct method is to study the sources of revelation, but then give the final word to the Church. He who does not follow that method is not a qualified Catholic theologian. Vatican II taught (Dei Verbum # 10): "The task of authoritatively interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on [Scripture or Tradition], has been entrusted exclusively to the living Magisterium of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura4.htm

The RCC doctrine of the Teaching Magisterium is likely the driving force behind all the heretical teachings of the RCC.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A sad but true story. Several years ago my wife had occasion to talk to a dear lady, a refugee from up north. How the conversation turned to religion I do not know. Anyhow the lady was a Roman Catholic. She told my wife that she knew a lot about Mary but almost nothing about Jesus Christ. That tells you the tragedy that the RCC has foisted on the world and it is very sad.

Bingo...that's why most of these people are functional non believers & if they have any understanding at all, then it is spoon fed to then by some cleric who generally has an agenda. And it has always been that way. Don't believe me, then ask the reformers.

This church has been prostituting the teaching of Christ from the beginning & used their position to serve their own purposes. Trust me its still going on.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I know bone lasts a long time but looks like it would be worn out from all that touching!

They keep it sealed then put it in a mayonnaise jar where it sits from year to year on the Bishop's back porch till its called back to Scranton for active duty.:laugh:

 

[saturneptune]

So Thinking Stuffed and Walrus, I was wondering what happens to the substance of the body and blood of Christ after communion and the magical transsubstitution takes place. What do you do with the elements? Do you put them in a blender and add them to holy water your sell? Or perhaps the priests consume the elements and add years to their life kind of like the ancient beetle from Eygpt? Oh I know, maybe you take the elements and sell them to faith healers so they can go on television.

Is nothing sacred to you and your denomination? The body and blood of Christ, the most precious substances in the universe that frees us from the consequences of sin, has been taken by your cult, and reduced to a magic act and trinket gimic.

 

[saturneptune]

They keep it sealed then put it in a mayonnaise jar where it sits from year to year on the Bishop's back porch till its called back to Scranton for active duty.:laugh:

Only if he says "Hail Mary full of grace, where did you get that ugly face" twice a day.

 

[Yeshua1]

I assure you I am not. I am putting forward the actual Catholic position.


I would submit to you that they do not carry the blessed mother through the streets on Catholic feast days rather they carry an image of her reminding all of her part in the life of Christ and out of respect for her and her role.


Yes, they probably do however I think you interpret that being the Mother of God in some way means she created or originated God rather than what Mother of God actually means which is she gave birth to Jesus Christ who is her creater, Lord, and savior. That she allowed herself to be used by God to bring forth the incarnation. So yes they respect her humility and obedience to God in bringing for the incarnation. Jesus Christ who is God and who is man. Ie.. Theotokos. The title Mother of God speaks to the true nature of Christ and his divinity. You should really understand and study the origination of the title theotokos.


The Hail Mary is nothing of a "parody" of the Our Father. The structure and words would be all wrong if that were the case. No, rather its partly a quote stated by Gabriel at the annunciation of the incarnation to Mary. And its partly a statement made by Elizabeth. And its reminding of us Christ nature useing the title Theotokos. And its a request for her prayers to God on our behalf. That is all.

If you have heard the song you should know the words. No where is it indicated that Mary is God.
Yes, this happened but if you read about what happened there the vision asked the child to pray for the conversion of sinners, called christians to repentance, and to encourage a stronger devotion to Jesus. There were also healings. But when I think about this I don't see how this is any different from Moses or Elijah coming down showing themselves to the 3 Aposltes at the Mt. of Transfiguration.



Which because of this vision and the strange picture appearing on Juan Diego's Tilma caused many natives to convert to Christianity and move away from their pagan practices.


Yes this is true.


Only by people who aren't properly educated in the Catholic Faith. Mary is not a "feminine face of God" nor is she a "goddess". Mary to the Catholic way of thinking is the New Eve. The woman recapitulated by God. This is what the Catholic Church Actually teaches regarding Mary Now pay attention as this is the teaching regarding honoring Mary not as God. So its not I that has changed the Church's teaching but am expressing the actual teaching of the Church despite what it is your family does.

was Mary born a sinner, per the bible?
Did she need a Saviour to be her redeemer, per the Bible?
is there ANY Biblical example of "veneration" that accorded to ANYONE other than God any verneation/worship?
Does the Bible record ANYTHING the RCC ascibes to mary as Co matrix/Cio reddemer/Mother of God Intercessor for saints etc?
She is to be honored as being obedient to the call of God to have His Son, but NOT to have ANYTHING else honoring her any more than your mother or ine had, if they were Christians!

 

[OldRegular]

So Thinking Stuffed and Walrus, I was wondering what happens to the substance of the body and blood of Christ after communion and the magical transsubstitution takes place. What do you do with the elements? Do you put them in a blender and add them to holy water your sell? Or perhaps the priests consume the elements and add years to their life kind of like the ancient beetle from Eygpt? Oh I know, maybe you take the elements and sell them to faith healers so they can go on television.

Is nothing sacred to you and your denomination? The body and blood of Christ, the most precious substances in the universe that frees us from the consequences of sin, has been taken by your cult, and reduced to a magic act and trinket gimic.

True story!

Had a pastor who was called into the ministry while serving as a navigator in the Air Force {A Captain}. In North Africa the RC Chaplains were conducting an outdoor mass. After the wafers had been blessed and converted a sudden windstorm came up and blew the wafers away. Chaplains had to find them in the sand! At least those that were not found got a decent burial instead of winding up in the bodily waste of some devout RC!

 

[Yeshua1]

True story!

Had a pastor who was called into the ministry while serving as a navigator in the Air Force {A Captain}. In North Africa the RC Chaplains were conducting an outdoor mass. After the wafers had been blessed and converted a sudden windstorm came up and blew the wafers away. Chaplains had to find them in the sand! At least those that were not found got a decent burial instead of winding up in the bodily waste of some devout RC!

If a person becomes sick and spits out the host, aren't the priests required to wipe it clean and re use it again?