Quantrill, you wrote: "Christ paid the penalty for sin...period. That involves all sin that ever anyone does."
Then you wrote:
"So, yes, Christ paid the penalty for Sin...all sin."
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1st Corinthians 15 Universal atonement
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Then you wrote:
"So, yes, Christ paid the penalty for Sin...all sin."
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
He delivered to them before they were ' brothers 'I'm unsure how you get universal atonement from the first three verses of 1 Corinthians 15.
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
Notice he calls them brothers, not pagans.
He then addresses them in the first person (you).
Finally, he limits who Christ died for as being himself and his Corinthian brothers (you).
Please explain how you think Paul is teaching universal atonement applied to all humanity in these verses.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Yes Jesus died for the sin of unbelief. You then quote John 8 which is before Jesus dies for those sins . Which shows your confused about things .His reading is fine you did not answer him.
unbelief is also a sin.Was that sin paid for?
your post has no biblical base.
Why did Jesus tell those unbelievers in Jn 8 they would die in their sins,PLURAL.
The only place all sin is paid for and the wrath of God is turned away is in saving Union with Christ.
You correctly identified the two federal heads,
first Adam, last Adam, but your view of the atonement was off.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
post hoc rationalization.Universal atonement is not taught in scripture anywhere.
The gospel goes out worldwide, because God has His people scattered worldwide. Jn.11:49-51
Atonement is perfect payment for sin. Can a just God send a person whose sin has been perfectly paid for to hell?
If so, how can it be justified?
HE DID send a just person to hell, fellow! How did he justify it? By raising him from the dead. The eternal blood has been shed. It is on the mercy seat in heaven. It is the agent that washes away sin, the only agent that washes away sin. It is applied when the sinner repents toward God and believes in Jesus Christ who shed it for us.
What you Calvinists teach is not the gospel of Jesus Christ but a denial of it. God is not imputing sin to sinners now while they live because he is satisficed with the offering of a substitute. Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment.
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
2 Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, (he took the sin away) not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
What you guys teach about the atonement of Christ is a serious matter.
Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
When?
Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
His reading is fine you did not answer him.
unbelief is also a sin.Was that sin paid for?
your post has no biblical base.
Why did Jesus tell those unbelievers in Jn 8 they would die in their sins,PLURAL.
The only place all sin is paid for and the wrath of God is turned away is in saving Union with Christ.
You correctly identified the two federal heads,
first Adam, last Adam, but your view of the atonement was off.
No, his and your reading comprehension are lacking. Either that or you are just purposefully ignoring what I said. I think the latter now is true since you also claim I have no Biblical basis, which is false. And you did nothing to explain away my Biblical basis.
All sin has been paid for. That alone saves no one. No one. That alone doesn't save the elect. That alone doesn't save the lost sheep. Faith in God and Christ must be exercised to move one from the race of Adam to the race of Christ, and become a child of God.
Christ said what He did in (John 8:24), is it that hard to give the verse, because that is true. They don't exercise faith, they die in their sins. As I said, just because Christ paid for all sin, didn't move anyone from Adam's race of the sinner and condemned into Christ's race of the saved and righteous. These will die in their sins, even though their sins have been paid for. Because they are still in their sins, still in Adam.
I am quite comfortable with my view of the atonement.
Quantrill
Quantrill, you wrote: "Christ paid the penalty for sin...period. That involves all sin that ever anyone does."
Then you wrote:
"So, yes, Christ paid the penalty for Sin...all sin."
Well yes, I did write that. But, I wrote a lot more than that, which if you had read it, it explained why I said what I did, which was not what you said I said.
Quantrill
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Negative inference fallacy. By your logic Jesus only died for Paul in Gal 2.20 .I'm unsure how you get universal atonement from the first three verses of 1 Corinthians 15.
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
Notice he calls them brothers, not pagans.
He then addresses them in the first person (you).
Finally, he limits who Christ died for as being himself and his Corinthian brothers (you).
Please explain how you think Paul is teaching universal atonement applied to all humanity in these verses.
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
prophecy70,
"[]It's funny that Christ, nor any of the apostles, ever warned us to be careful to generalize the Gospel so we don't actually lie. Rather, they used the worst possible word choices to convey a limited atonement:]
They did not have to.They spoke very clearly on the design of the atonement.
jn10 :11 identifies the identity of the Good Shepherd,and who he gives his life for.
The sheep, His sheep, He seeks and saves them.Every one of them.
Not one is lost. jn 10:14,15
Paul understood completely...Acts 20:28.....to shepherd the Church of God which he purposed with His own blood.
"[]It's funny that Christ, nor any of the apostles, ever warned us to be careful to generalize the Gospel so we don't actually lie. Rather, they used the worst possible word choices to convey a limited atonement:]
They did not have to.They spoke very clearly on the design of the atonement.
jn10 :11 identifies the identity of the Good Shepherd,and who he gives his life for.
The sheep, His sheep, He seeks and saves them.Every one of them.
Not one is lost. jn 10:14,15
Paul understood completely...Acts 20:28.....to shepherd the Church of God which he purposed with His own blood.
Not only do you not know what you are posting about, but you really do not want an answer.Yes Jesus died for the sin of unbelief. You then quote John 8 which is before Jesus dies for those sins . Which shows your confused about things .
When Jesus dies for the sins of the elect they are gone.We do not die in our sins.
Micah 7:19
Another useless post to deflect from actually dealing with anything offered.post hoc rationalization.
you can be as comfortable as you want, but you are not speaking of an actual atonement, or an actual propitiation, and indicates you have a defective view of the fall into sin and death..No, his and your reading comprehension are lacking. Either that or you are just purposefully ignoring what I said. I think the latter now is true since you also claim I have no Biblical basis, which is false. And you did nothing to explain away my Biblical basis.
All sin has been paid for. That alone saves no one. No one. That alone doesn't save the elect. That alone doesn't save the lost sheep. Faith in God and Christ must be exercised to move one from the race of Adam to the race of Christ, and become a child of God.
Christ said what He did in (John 8:24), is it that hard to give the verse, because that is true. They don't exercise faith, they die in their sins. As I said, just because Christ paid for all sin, didn't move anyone from Adam's race of the sinner and condemned into Christ's race of the saved and righteous. These will die in their sins, even though their sins have been paid for. Because they are still in their sins, still in Adam.
I am quite comfortable with my view of the atonement.
Quantrill
you can be as comfortable as you want, but you are not speaking of an actual atonement, or an actual propitiation, and indicates you have a defective view of the fall into sin and death..
Ummm? Sounds like a post to deflect rather than dealing with what was offered.
Quantrill
Negative inference fallacy.
More deflection,Austin notice this so called "fallacy",lol.
When no real answer is available...we seek to find a debate fallacy way of escape,lol.
What you offered is a falsehood, denying the Covenant nature of the atonement.Ummm? Sounds like a post to deflect rather than dealing with what was offered.
Quantrill
Heb.2:9-16
What you offered is a falsehood, denying the Covenant nature of the atonement.
Heb.2:9-16
Nothing I said is in conflict with (Heb. 2:9-16). Where do you see that?
Quantrill
"JD731,
[What you Calvinists teach is not the gospel of Jesus Christ but a denial of it.
What you guys teach about the atonement of Christ is a serious matter.]
So, lets see...Charles Spurgeon did not preach the gospel, but rather denied it?
All the puritans and reformers denied it as well?
The Apostles did not preach the gospel but denied it.
?
Millions of confessional christians have denied it?
It is a shame they did not read your posts first so you could have offered to correct them
[What you Calvinists teach is not the gospel of Jesus Christ but a denial of it.
What you guys teach about the atonement of Christ is a serious matter.]
So, lets see...Charles Spurgeon did not preach the gospel, but rather denied it?
All the puritans and reformers denied it as well?
The Apostles did not preach the gospel but denied it.
?
Millions of confessional christians have denied it?
It is a shame they did not read your posts first so you could have offered to correct them
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Elect is never about salvation.Not only do you not know what you are posting about, but you really do not want an answer.
When Jesus dies for the sins of the elect they are gone.We do not die in our sins.
Micah 7:19
it does say He took hold of the seed of Adam...Nothing I said is in conflict with (Heb. 2:9-16). Where do you see that?
Quantrill
It says He took upon Himself the seed of Abraham.
When Peter was sinking in the water,the same word was used mt.14:31. He reached out His hand,and caught him,
Such and ignorant comment shows you just want to oppose truth at any cost.Elect is never about salvation.
There will not be any non elect in Heaven.
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