1st Corinthians 15 Universal atonement

[Quantrill]

it does say He took hold of the seed of Adam...
It says He took upon Himself the seed of Abraham.

When Peter was sinking in the water,the same word was used mt.14:31. He reached out His hand,and caught him,

Again, how is that in conflict with anything I said.

Quantrill

 

[Iconoclast]

Again, how is that in conflict with anything I said.

Quantrill

I would ask you to study this section of scripture..look in the Hebrews commentary by A.W. Pink....it is available online in the Pink Archives.
He will walk you through the passage verse by verse.

 

[Quantrill]

I would ask you to study this section of scripture..look in the Hebrews commentary by A.W. Pink....it is available online in the Pink Archives.
He will walk you through the passage verse by verse.

In other words, you don't know, or can't explain it. Which is really the same thing.

I will read up on your reference to Pink. I encourage you to reread what I have said and reconsider your statements.

Quantrill

 

[Iconoclast]

In other words, you don't know, or can't explain it. Which is really the same thing.

I will read up on your reference to Pink. I encourage you to reread what I have said and reconsider your statements.

Quantrill

No, I do know and can answer in full, but as I am working I cannot take the time right now..Here found this for you
Hebrews 2 Commentary - A.W. Pink's Commentary on John and Hebrews
Read the whole passage in one sitting...

 

[SavedByGrace]

Surely the "extent" of the Death of Jesus Christ, and its "availibility", for who, is summed up well in John 3:16? I know there are some who engage in the distorting of what the Bible actually says, by their theological slant; but the Truth is, that this one verse, very clearly says what is the Heart and Intent of the Great God of the Holy Bible:

"For God loved the world (entire human race, NONE excepted) in this way: He gave His Unique Son, so that everyone (from this human race) who believes (continues to place their trust) in Him will not perish but have eternal life."

Says it ALL!!!

 

[AustinC]

He delivered to them before they were ' brothers '

The message of reconciliation is given universally. We should all agree. But, we are specifically talking about atonement, sacrifice that results in perfect payment and cleansing of sin. Nowhere in 1 Corinthians 15:1-3, or anywhere else in the Bible, do we see God stating that all humanity, past, present, and future, is fully atoned by Jesus shed blood sacrifice. In fact, I just read through James, 1/2 Peter, 1/2/3 John and Jude, in which they all show atonement is limited.

However, you are welcome to try convince me that all sins of all people are paid for and thus all humans are holy before God their Creator.

 

[AustinC]

HE DID send a just person to hell, fellow! How did he justify it? By raising him from the dead. The eternal blood has been shed. It is on the mercy seat in heaven. It is the agent that washes away sin, the only agent that washes away sin. It is applied when the sinner repents toward God and believes in Jesus Christ who shed it for us.

What you Calvinists teach is not the gospel of Jesus Christ but a denial of it. God is not imputing sin to sinners now while they live because he is satisficed with the offering of a substitute. Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment.


Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

2 Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, (he took the sin away) not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

What you guys teach about the atonement of Christ is a serious matter.

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

When?

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Are you claiming that, since Jesus atonement is fully paid for all, therefore all go to heaven, just as Jesus, their atoner is in heaven?
You have to explain how a person who has been fully cleansed of all sin can be justly sent to hell and kept there for eternity.

 

[AustinC]

Well yes, I did write that. But, I wrote a lot more than that, which if you had read it, it explained why I said what I did, which was not what you said I said.

Quantrill

It doesn't explain it, however. It avoids and muddies up your claim in an attempt to obfuscate your very real conflict of ideas. That conflict is something you have to resolve and it cannot be resolved without admitting Jesus atonement is limited to those the Father has given to Him.

 

[AustinC]

Negative inference fallacy. By your logic Jesus only died for Paul in Gal 2.20 .
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In that verse, Paul is only referring to himself.
Can you or I refer to ourselves in the same fashion? For me, I can say yes.
Therefore, Paul has limited who can echo his statement in Galatians 2:20. The entire world cannot say those words, which Paul spoke and make a universal application.
Therefore, your use of Galatians 2:20 makes my point even more clear.

 

[Quantrill]

No, I do know and can answer in full, but as I am working I cannot take the time right now..Here found this for you
Hebrews 2 Commentary - A.W. Pink's Commentary on John and Hebrews
Read the whole passage in one sitting...

Well, you should wait till you get off work to answer. I can wait.

I don't need the link. I have Pinks book. (An Exposition of Hebrews, Arthur Pink, Baker Book House, 1979) I see nothing in conflict with what I have said with Pink.

I don't think you understand what I said, or even really read what I said. I am not a universalist. Pink said, (p.139), concerning (Heb. 2:16), "This verse presents an insoluble difficulty to those who believe in the universality of God's love and grace." Pink goes on to say, (p. 140), "They insist that justice as well as mercy demanded that He should die for all of Adam's race."

So, I am not a universalist as I already said. I do not insist on what Pink says others insist on. So why do you send me to Pink? You, and others, are not trying to address what I have said. You are simply reverting to all your usual arguments against those who oppose Calvinism.

Address what I have said.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

It doesn't explain it, however. It avoids and muddies up your claim in an attempt to obfuscate your very real conflict of ideas. That conflict is something you have to resolve and it cannot be resolved without admitting Jesus atonement is limited to those the Father has given to Him.

I have no conflict. What conflict are you talking about? You still can't address what I said. All you can do is generalize your statements. Answer what I said concerning the two Adam's.

It is God who chose to redeem man through a One man representative. Christ. This is why He had all of man fall in one man, Adam. Adams sin didn't just touch Cain, or Judas. Adam's sin covered all of mankind, even the elect. Was God just in that? Of course. In this way One Man can redeem.

The Last Adam, Christ, didn't just pick out individuals to die for. He couldn't. The operation of Federal implementation required He pay the price for Sin. That is all Sin. He wasn't paying for individuals sins. He was paying for Sin the disease. Which would of course cover an individuals sins, and it covers all sins. Thus providing the way for the elect to be saved.

Christ had to represent the ''all" who fell in Adam or it wasn't Federal Headship. If He didn't represent the "all" in Adam, Christ would not be the Last Adam. He would just be Christ. But Christ is the Last Adam and does represent all those in Adam. That doesn't mean all will come to Him to be saved. Most do not. They reject such a salvation and remain in their sins, in Adam.

Either way, God is just.

Quantrill

 

[AustinC]

I have no conflict. What conflict are you talking about? You still can't address what I said. All you can do is generalize your statements. Answer what I said concerning the two Adam's.

It is God who chose to redeem man through a One man representative. Christ. This is why He had all of man fall in one man, Adam. Adams sin didn't just touch Cain, or Judas. Adam's sin covered all of mankind, even the elect. Was God just in that? Of course. In this way One Man can redeem.

The Last Adam, Christ, didn't just pick out individuals to die for. He couldn't. The operation of Federal implementation required He pay the price for Sin. That is all Sin. He wasn't paying for individuals sins. He was paying for Sin the disease. Which would of course cover an individuals sins, and it covers all sins. Thus providing the way for the elect to be saved.

Christ had to represent the ''all" who fell in Adam or it wasn't Federal Headship. If He didn't represent the "all" in Adam, Christ would not be the Last Adam. He would just be Christ. But Christ is the Last Adam and does represent all those in Adam. That doesn't mean all will come to Him to be saved. Most do not. They reject such a salvation and remain in their sins, in Adam.

Either way, God is just.

Quantrill

Here you still do not deny you are teaching universalism. If fact, you are teaching universalism.
You state that in Adam all mankind (universal) fell into the curse of sin. (We both agree)

Then you state that in Christ all men (universal) are all "represented" (I assume you mean atoned for) by his sacrificial death.

So, are all humanities sins fully atoned for every single human being, past, present, and future? Has this been effectively accomplished to all humanity? Universal atonement must say...yes. Limited atonement says...no.
Limited atonement says only those whom the Father has given to Jesus have had their sins atoned by Jesus sacrificial death. The "all" is limited to all who believe. If the "all" is not limited to belief, then universal atonement has effectively paid for all humanity so that a just God cannot send any person to hell. Why? Because all are made holy and their debt has been fully paid in Christ.

 

[Dave G]

Universal atonement is not taught in scripture anywhere.

I agree.
But, if one uses verses in isolation ( like 1 John 2:2, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 4:14, John 1:29, Isaiah 53:6, 1 Timothy 4:10, 2 Peter 2:1, 1 Timothy 2:5-6John 3:16-17 and several others ), then I think it can be convincingly shown from portions of His word to be true ( not that it is ).

I was raised under this sort of teaching, and beyond a doubt I can tell you that it is very compelling.
Where I think it runs into serious problems, is that it doesn't take into account all of the Scriptures involved;
Upon further examination ( if anyone bothers to go that far ), "Universal Atonement" does not ask the hard questions:


1) "Why would a loving God cast people into Hell for their sins, if those sins were paid for at the cross?"
Answer A ( not found in Scripture ): "Because the sin of unbelief was not paid for." <---- This answer denies Colossians 2:13-14, Isaiah 53:6 and several others that declare that our iniquities ( sins ) were laid upon Him, and that He will not remember those sins.
Scripture says that all the sins of His people were cast upon Christ, not some of them.

Answer B ( also not found in Scripture ): " Because we are cleansed of our sins at point-of-belief." <---- This answer denies what was clearly done at the cross and is to me, an answer from silence that God's word itself does not provide...

God reconciling the believer to Him by the death of His Son ( Romans 5:12 ),
Christ actually redeeming a people from the curse of the Law, when He was made a curse for them by being placed on a tree ( Galatians 3:13 ),
and Christ giving Himself for the church ( the ekklesia or "called out ones" ) so that He might sanctify and cleanse it and present it to Himself without any spot or blemish ( Ephesians 5:25-27 ).

2) " Why would a loving God limited salvation to the whoseover believeth, instead of saving everyone?"
Answer A ( not completely established by the Scriptures that are often provided ): " Because Scripture says that." <----- To me, this answer leaves out election, predestination, and many other important truths found in the rest of God's word...that the reason people believe, is because they are Christ's sheep ( John 10:26 ), they are ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ), and that no man can come to the Father unless they are drawn ( John 6:44 ) and were given to Christ by Him ( John 6:37-40, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 ).

3) " If all men were reconciled to God ( 2 Corinthians 5:14-21 ), why would He send the ones that were reconciled to Him ( making them His friends and no longer His enemies ), to Hell to suffer everlasting torment?"
I've yet to see a Scriptural answer for this one.

4) " Why did God send His Son to die for everyone, if hardly anyone will believe?"
Answer A ( not found in Scripture ): " Because each man and woman has a choice put before them...to accept or reject Christ when the Gospel is preached to them." <---

To me, this answer denies what is declared in the Scriptures found in item 2 as well as many other passages of Scripture dealing with God hiding His face from some, and revealing His face to others...Matthew 13:10-11, Matthew 11:27, John 8:43-47, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and passages dealing with Israel being judicially blinded to name a few.
It also denies Scriptures that tell us why people believe and why they do not as in item 2.

Answer B ( From Scriptural silence ): " Because that's just the way that it is."

 

[Dave G]

Surely the "extent" of the Death of Jesus Christ, and its "availibility", for who, is summed up well in John 3:16? I know there are some who engage in the distorting of what the Bible actually says, by their theological slant; but the Truth is, that this one verse, very clearly says what is the Heart and Intent of the Great God of the Holy Bible:

"For God loved the world (entire human race, NONE excepted) in this way: He gave His Unique Son, so that everyone (from this human race) who believes (continues to place their trust) in Him will not perish but have eternal life."

Says it ALL!!!

Surely the extent of the death of Jesus Christ, and it's intent, is summed up by this one passage:

" Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." ( Ephesians 5:24-27 ).

To me, this says all that I need to know...
That the believer in Jesus Christ is not only secure in His love for them, but that their Saviour actually accomplished all that He was sent by their Father to do...

Redeem them in His love for them.

It was all accomplished when they were without the strength to even believe, and dead in their trespasses and sins.

 

[Dave G]

What you guys teach about the atonement of Christ is a serious matter.

Of that I have no doubt, sir.

To me, it is a very serious matter, because it deals with the heart of the Gospel and what was actually accomplished at the cross and for whom.

 

[Dave G]

If Paul was in a group of unbelievers preaching the gospel and says "Jesus died for our sins" that would be Paul and the group he was talking to, that logically entails Paul is teaching an unlimited atonement, because if Paul wouldn't of known who christ died for, and only if Paul actually knew before the whole group would be saved, Paul would of been not telling the truth.

I think if you study the Scriptures carefully where Paul preached in the book of Acts, you will see that he never did these two things:

1) Lead off by telling anyone that he preached to, that God loved them.
2) Lead off by telling anyone that he preached to, who Christ died for.

In fact,
I also think that you will find, as you study, that those details are later found in the epistles and are never mentioned by him until then.

Christ Himself in the "Gospels", however, was preaching to those that already were supposed to know Him ( and claimed to ), and defining many important truths.
He was preaching to Jews, and telling them that there was much more outside the nation of Israel with respect to God's scope of salvation...
The rest of the Gentile nations ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9, 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 ).

" And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd." ( John 10:16 ).


One thing that I did when I was not all that much younger as a believer, was to dump logic and reason into the proverbial garbage can and simply trust His words no matter what they said.
I figure it like this:

Our understanding as believers should be subject to His words, and not the other way around ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ).
Please consider that when you study His words,
because I've seen a lot that is written in there that defies logic...

The "virgin birth",
Moses ( actually the Lord ) parting the Red Sea,
A flowing river, the river Jordan, being parted and remaining so while the children of Israel crossed it...thousands of them.
Dead being raised again,
Blind men being given sight,
Deaf people hearing again,
Leprosy being cleansed,
Issues of blood disappearing,
Palsy being healed,
Demons being cast out,
The sun stopping in the sky ( if the earth rotates, why didn't everyone get thrown off it by the sudden stop?...hmmm... ) and even going backwards,
...and many more wonderful things, my friend.

To me, this subject of the atonement must be approached with patience and a lot of Scriptural study before a final decision can be made with any accuracy.



May God bless you with good health and with many other good things in this life.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Such and ignorant comment shows you just want to oppose truth at any cost.
There will not be any non elect in Heaven.

Do a word search on ' elect ' chosen, ' ect and EVERYTIME its to do with service and purpose . Never salvation.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The message of reconciliation is given universally. We should all agree. But, we are specifically talking about atonement, sacrifice that results in perfect payment and cleansing of sin. Nowhere in 1 Corinthians 15:1-3, or anywhere else in the Bible, do we see God stating that all humanity, past, present, and future, is fully atoned by Jesus shed blood sacrifice. In fact, I just read through James, 1/2 Peter, 1/2/3 John and Jude, in which they all show atonement is limited.

However, you are welcome to try convince me that all sins of all people are paid for and thus all humans are holy before God their Creator.

The atonement has to be recieved. Rom 5 .11

 

[Barry Johnson]

In that verse, Paul is only referring to himself.
Can you or I refer to ourselves in the same fashion? For me, I can say yes.
Therefore, Paul has limited who can echo his statement in Galatians 2:20. The entire world cannot say those words, which Paul spoke and make a universal application.
Therefore, your use of Galatians 2:20 makes my point even more clear.

Yes the entire cosmos can say ' " he gave his life for me " . Absolutely. Thats because Jesus did give his life for everyone. But not everyone receives the atonement until they believe. God is pleased to save those that believe 1 cor 1.21 . Not cause believe in those he saves ( Augustines gnosctism)

 

[SavedByGrace]

Surely the extent of the death of Jesus Christ, and it's intent, is summed up by this one passage:

" Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." ( Ephesians 5:24-27 ).

To me, this says all that I need to know...
That the believer in Jesus Christ is not only secure in His love for them, but that their Saviour actually accomplished all that He was sent by their Father to do...

Redeem them in His love for them.

It was all accomplished when they were without the strength to even believe, and dead in their trespasses and sins.

so ignore John 3:16!?