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1st Corinthians 15 Universal atonement

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Yeshua1

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Barry Johnson said:
Yes the entire cosmos can say ' " he gave his life for me " . Absolutely. Thats because Jesus did give his life for everyone. But not everyone receives the atonement until they believe. God is pleased to save those that believe 1 cor 1.21 . Not cause believe in those he saves ( Augustines gnosctism)
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The sin debt owed to God by the lost sinners was not paid for and placed upon Jesus....
 
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AustinC

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Barry Johnson said:
The atonement has to be recieved. Rom 5 .11
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Romans 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Notice that we (believers) received reconciliation (from God).

It does not say that humans choose whether or not to receive reconciliation and only if a human chooses to receive reconciliation will the reconciliation be applied to that person who chooses.

Yet, that is how you seem to be reading Romans 5:11.

The elect receive reconciliation, not by their choice, but by God's choice to reconcile us to himself.

Now, does God universally choose to reconcile all humanity to himself? I say... no. He only reconciles those whom He chooses to give to Jesus. Jesus atonement is therefore limited to whom He wills.

Barry, Romans 5:11 shows you are wrong in your view.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

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Yeshua1 said:
No, just understand its meaning from the greater context...
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which says ALL, the entire human race. otherwise the preaching of the Gospel, which is Good News, to the whole human race, as Jesus Himself says in Mark 16:15, "He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.", is insincere and no more than an empty sham!
 
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AustinC

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Barry Johnson said:
Yes the entire cosmos can say ' " he gave his life for me " . Absolutely. Thats because Jesus did give his life for everyone. But not everyone receives the atonement until they believe. God is pleased to save those that believe 1 cor 1.21 . Not cause believe in those he saves ( Augustines gnosctism)
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Barry, you have just taught merited reconciliation and salvation. You have also made the atonement ineffective for anyone who doesn't merit their reconciliation.
You then go on to make belief a human effort of the will, apart from grace and the gift of God.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

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AustinC said:
Barry, you have just taught merited reconciliation and salvation. You have also made the atonement ineffective for anyone who doesn't merit their reconciliation.
You then go on to make belief a human effort of the will, apart from grace and the gift of God.
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what do you make of Acts 10:34-35?

"Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right"
 
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Yeshua1

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SavedByGrace said:
which says ALL, the entire human race. otherwise the preaching of the Gospel, which is Good News, to the whole human race, as Jesus Himself says in Mark 16:15, "He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.", is insincere and no more than an empty sham!
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The Offer to get saved is really to be given to all as sincere, but many will refuse to receive the good news and reject...
 
Dave G

Dave G

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SavedByGrace said:
so ignore John 3:16!?
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I would say, "Don't ignore any of the words" ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ).

In fact, if we were to follow that explicitly,
I think that we as believers should all be looking very hard at Psalms 5:5 and Psalms 11:5 ( and many others like Romans 9:13 ) when we look at John 3:16 to determine who God loves, for example.
 
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Dave G

Dave G

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SavedByGrace said:
what do you make of Acts 10:34-35?

"Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right"
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I'm not Austin, but I'd like to reply to this if it's OK:

" Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. " ( Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35 ).

Here's what I see when I bring in the truth from other Scriptures, as I read this passage:



1) God does not respct persons when it comes to saving them...
He will have mercy and compassion on whom He wills ( Romans 9:14-18 ).
Nothing we do can ever make us respectable as sinners in the eyes of a holy God.

2) In every nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9, 1 Corinthians 1:23-24, John 10:16, Romans 9:22-24, Romans 10:11-13, Romans 11:7-36 ) he that fears God.
See Psalms 10, Psalms 14, Romans 1:18-32 and Romans 3:10-18 for those who, by default, fear God.
If anyone fears the Lord and respects Him, it's because they are born again and are now not hating the Lord and disrespecting Him and His words.
In addition, being born again is not by our will, but by God's ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).

3) No one works righteousness apart from being made righteous by the blood of Jesus Christ.
There is none righteous, no, not one ( Romans 3:10-11 ).
Therefore, only the saved who have been imputed the righteousness of Christ can ever do any truly good works, because God, in His favor, looks upon them who He has made righteous, as the only ones whose works please Him.
Those same works that He has before ordained that they should walk in ( Ephesians 2:10 ).

4) Only people who have been made accepted by Him, are accepted with Him.
Our works do not make us accepted, but His work and His grace are what makes us as believers, accepted in the beloved ( Ephesians 1:6 ).
He does it, and we are looked upon as His perfect work.

We bring nothing to the table and we stand on nothing except His mercy and grace ( Titus 3:4-7 ).
There is therefore nothing to boast about with regard to salvation from His wrath.

There is no work that could ever make anyone accepted with Him, because we cannot do what God the Father requires and that only the Lord Jesus ever did...
Obey the Law in all points.


May God bless you greatly as you study His words.
 
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Dave G

Dave G

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SavedByGrace said:
which requires a "free will" and the rejection of the "U" from TULIP!
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I think that if you look carefully at God's word, you will see that it nowhere declares that man's will is completely free.

Rather, it teaches that we as sinners are either enslaved to sin and loving it ( Romans 1:18-32, John 3:19-20 ), or set free from sin by the power of God and hating it ( Romans 6, Romans 7 ).
There is no "neutral position".

To me, man's will was only ever free in the Garden...
And the first time out using that freedom to choose, we botched it good.:(
 
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Iconoclast

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Quantrill said:
I have no conflict. What conflict are you talking about? You still can't address what I said. All you can do is generalize your statements. Answer what I said concerning the two Adam's.

It is God who chose to redeem man through a One man representative. Christ. This is why He had all of man fall in one man, Adam. Adams sin didn't just touch Cain, or Judas. Adam's sin covered all of mankind, even the elect. Was God just in that? Of course. In this way One Man can redeem.

The Last Adam, Christ, didn't just pick out individuals to die for. He couldn't. The operation of Federal implementation required He pay the price for Sin. That is all Sin. He wasn't paying for individuals sins. He was paying for Sin the disease. Which would of course cover an individuals sins, and it covers all sins. Thus providing the way for the elect to be saved.

Christ had to represent the ''all" who fell in Adam or it wasn't Federal Headship. If He didn't represent the "all" in Adam, Christ would not be the Last Adam. He would just be Christ. But Christ is the Last Adam and does represent all those in Adam. That doesn't mean all will come to Him to be saved. Most do not. They reject such a salvation and remain in their sins, in Adam.

Either way, God is just.

Quantrill[/QUOTE
All are in.Adam by physical birth

Those in the last Adam are by spiritual birth

Those are who are given to the Son
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I

Iconoclast

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AustinC said:
Here you still do not deny you are teaching universalism. If fact, you are teaching universalism.
You state that in Adam all mankind (universal) fell into the curse of sin. (We both agree)

Then you state that in Christ all men (universal) are all "represented" (I assume you mean atoned for) by his sacrificial death.

So, are all humanities sins fully atoned for every single human being, past, present, and future? Has this been effectively accomplished to all humanity? Universal atonement must say...yes. Limited atonement says...no.
Limited atonement says only those whom the Father has given to Jesus have had their sins atoned by Jesus sacrificial death. The "all" is limited to all who believe. If the "all" is not limited to belief, then universal atonement has effectively paid for all humanity so that a just God cannot send any person to hell. Why? Because all are made holy and their debt has been fully paid in Christ.
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He also limits the efficacy of the atonement by saying those who don't believe don't get saved so he also limits the atonement he doesn't have an unlimited atonement because he speaking of a potential atonement that doesn't actually save anyone
 
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